RE-15 in .223 Rem... low MV

[memilanuk]

Hello,

I'm kind of in a rut here. I have a load w/ 75/77gr bullets that shoots pretty darn well. Either a 75gr Hornady or a 77gr SMK/Nosler,tried them all), 24.0gr RE-15, Winchester case, Rem 7-1/2 primer. Shoots far better than I can hold with a Service Rifle, and on the days I can get the shakes under control it puts them into respectable little groups even out of my SPR clone.

The problem is the speed. 2700+ is what I want.

Now before you even start on the mantra 'accuracy before speed'... yes, I know. Thanks. I usually get that from someone w/ a load going about what I *wish* mine was clocking. Must be nice to be able to say that from a comfortable position of being able to have your pie and eat it too.

Anyway... 24.0gr RE-15 from a 20" barrel is getting me a mere 2550fps. This is over several 1# bottles, and now a 5# jug,so not just one lot unless I got really lucky). This is also over the course of *three* barrels... all WOA stainless 20" Wilsons 1-7" twist w/ Wylde chamber by CLE... nothing exotic or unusual. The first tube,now retired) clocked ~2540fps w/ 77's, and under 2500 w/ 80's,same charge). I just finished chronographing 10rds thru the Service Rifle... avg 2557fps, and 41rds,I was bored) thru the SPR clone... avg 2549fps.

The chronograph is a usual suspect... the next trip out I'll take some rimfire match ammo just for reference, but I highly doubt it's the chrono,CED Millenium w/ IR sky screens). The velocities from my Palma rifle loads,.308 w/ 155's) and my 6mm BR,107gr SMK's) all match up very closely w/ the recorded velocities... w/i 1/4 minute or so out to 600. In the past I've put the chrono back to back w/ another CED Millenium... one read a little higher,avg 24fps), but they tracked incredibly close. Hell, I even changed the battery in the blasted thing last night!

Alliant's reloading guide on the 'Net shows 24.1gr RE-15 behind a 77gr SMK clocking @ 2793fps,out of a 24" tube, but I highly doubt there's 240fps difference over 4" of barrel... maybe more like 50 or 60fps).

Even the gunsmith is puzzled. Says 24gr RE-15 gets him 2730+fps like clockwork.

Any ideas? I'm not looking for turning a .223 into a .22-250 here. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck is going on. It always bugs the heck out of me when what I see in front of me doesn't match what others report. Just looking for a logical explanation,a solution would be nice as well).

TIA,

Monte

 

[amamnn]

According to my Sierra,5th Ed.) manual, you're getting pretty much what can be expected out of that,RE-15) powder and a 77 gr. MK. The new Hornady,7th Ed.) manual lists the 2700 you're trying to get with 24 gr or so of RL-15 and their 75gr.
The heaviest bullet my Nosler,volume 5) manual lists in .223 rem is 60 gr. Apparently they forgot to add load data for the custom competition bullets. They do list a load on their website that claims over 2700fps using more RL-15 than either Sierra or Hornady list as max load and their 77 gr. bullet.

I've burned a lot of Reloader 15 over the years; I'd believe the Sierra manual. Their test barrels seem to be pretty close to what I shoot in most calibers. I've played with several chronos as well and very seldom got the same MV that any manual listed. If I could get within 100-200 fps of a published load, I would call that good. Of course, the point in match shooting is to get all the little holes in the paper close together so it doesn't matter how fast the bullet makes the hole. I never had much luck getting that to happen using the max load in any caliber.

 

[REELDOC]

How far away are you setting your chrono?

 

[memilanuk]

As far away as the cables will let me... approx. 15'.

I'll try to remember to throw a tape measure in the range bag for the next trip, but I don't think it's far enough to make a meaningful difference.

 

[memilanuk]

Okay, after playing w/ the values in QL, it looks like I might have a *really* slow batch of RE-15. The projected speed is shown as 2693 fps,about what I expect/want), but it shows that if the burn rate was -10% from nominal it'd be about 2513fps,sounds awful familiar).

The question is how the blazes did I end up multiple bottles/jugs of RE-15 purchased in different towns, even different states, over two years or more, that are all consistently that slow?

I guess I can buy another 1# bottle and see if I got a bum batch, but this is just too weird.

 

[techshooter]

Monte

Measure your fired case capacity in grains H2O, and use that value in QL vs. the default. Also, measure your exact COL and use that vs. the default length. This may change things a lot more than you would think. If you are getting slower than expected, you may have a large chamber, thin brass, and seat the bullet farther out than normal, all leading to a larger than expected effective case volume, and hence lower pressures and velocity. It all adds up.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[memilanuk]

Chris,

OAL is set at 2.250 vs. the default 2.260",mag feed reliability and all that)

Case length set to 1.750" instead of 1.759". Can't see this one making a lot of difference in a mag-length round in this particular instance.

Weighed five fired cases w/ spent primers in them,95-97gr) then weighed w/ water in them. Average water capacity was 30.95gr vs. the default 28.80gr. Changed that as well. Thats where I am, getting the results listed above.

Thanks,

Monte

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

Monte,

You've got an interesting situation. I would have said a 'slow' barrel, but you've used different rifles. Powder comes to mind, but you're using different lots. Possibly your chronograph, but it doesn't sound likely. Maybe the conditions, like ambient temperature, distance from muzzle, and available light? I don't know, but all I can do is to list some of my figures using Re15 and the bullets you've been testing.

All tests fired between 80F and 95F over my Oehler 35P -

Colt CAR3 Elite w/24' Wilson barrel 1/9 twist
75gr. Hornady Match HPBT 25gr. Re15, Win brass, WSR primer, 2.25" COAL, 2753 fps.

SPR Clone w/18" Douglas 1/8 twist barrel
77gr. Nosler CC, 24.2gr. Re15, Win brass, Rem 7 1/2 primer, 2.26" COAL, 2710 fps.

Colt-based Service Rifle with 20" Colt HBAR 1/7 twist
77gr. SMK, 24.1gr. Re15, Win brass, WSR primer, 2.25" COAL, 2717 fps.


I know this doesn't answer your question, but hope it might help even if it's only in a very small way.

 

[Forum Boss]

Monte,

I just ran a QuickLOAD Sim with your case capacity and OAL, and it says 24.0 should give 2698 fps in 20" barrel. Figure that could be off 80 fps just for normal barrel variances, I'm still puzzled.

When was your RL15 made, and how are you measuring/weighing it?

I have a PACT scale, and unless I tare it at start of each session it can read up to 0.35 grains high. For grins, I reduced your charge to 23.6 grains and QL predicted 2653 fps.

 

[memilanuk]

I just ran a QuickLOAD Sim with your case capacity and OAL, and it says 24.0 should give 2698 fps in 20" barrel. Figure that could be off 80 fps just for normal barrel variances, I'm still puzzled.

You and me both

When was your RL15 made, and how are you measuring/weighing it?

Unfortunately the bottom of the jug kind of crowned out so part of the writing rubbed off. It *looks like* November '04, which would very possibly put it around the same time frame as the other 1#-ers that I had purchased locally,picked this 5# jug up @ the Sportsman's Warehouse in Twin Fall ID on a road trip last summer). Definitely makes a stronger argument for going shopping for a 'fresher' lot. I spoke briefly w/ a tech from Alliant,who also shoots SR w/ 24gr RE-15 behind a 77gr SMK); he agreed the velocity sounds low. I think we deciphered the lot number off the bottom of the jug; he's looking up the test reports on that particular lot.

This particular batch was thrown from a Redding BR-30, tricked out w/ the full Sinclair upgrade kit. Perfect it is not, but usually +/- 0.2gr w/ powders such as N140 & RE-15. The measure was set by throwing ten charges into a pan, weighing on an AccuLab VIC123, and dividing the total read by the number of charges, then repeating the whole process several times.

The E.S. & S.D. were about as hideous as I've seen in recent times,E.S. of 100, S.D. of 24, over 40 shots).

This is one of those loads that if I turn off the part of my brain that worries about this sort of thing and just sling up and shoot... it works fine. Lord knows I lose more points to sight alignment and trigger control than E.S./S.D. or even the wind. The catch is that I'm looking at using this or a similar load in a scoped AR rifle for some other matches... and scoped from a bipod takes a lot,not all, but a lot) of the wobble factor out of the equation so I'd like to tighten the load up a bit if I can.

 

[ronemus]

I shoot Hornady 75 gr BTHP and A-Max in my spacegun,28" 1:7 Krieger, .223 Holliger chamber) and get 2930 fps using 25 gr RL-15 with moly-coated bullets,LC brass, WSR primers); however, bare bullets are 100 fps slower. The bullets are from lots purchased at the same time,drop shipped from the factory) and other components are identical, so the only real difference is the moly. This is contradicts conventional wisdom, but it's what I saw with this particular load in my rifle. If you want that last 100 fps, you may want to try moly.

 

[techshooter]

Monte:

Have you tried a different primer with that load and lot of RL-15? Some powders are harder to get lit consistently than others. Ignition could definitely be a source of this mysterious behavior.

If you have a magnum small rifle primer or two, give that a try. I use CCI450s in the Dasher, it lights the RL-15 very nicely.

Cheers,

 

[USAPatriot]

This sort of goes back to the accuracy vs speed argument, but if as you claim you haven't been able to get loads this accurate from faster loads, then why sweat it? You may be able to find the solution to the mystery but if the groups get larger, that's just counterproductive. Maybe this is a knot best left tied. -Rod-

 

[trappst]

I don't have the experience that a lot of folks here have, nor do I shoot any kind of competition but:

Low velocity coupled with high ES and SD numbers just screams either primer swap or neck tension...or a combo of both.

What kind of neck tension do you have? I'm assuming your doing some kind of FL sizing for the gas gun....what's your methods?

 

[memilanuk]

I did get a call back from the Alliant powder tech yesterday... he didn't go into specifics but apparently that lot is definitely on the slow side. He was going to put in a complaint report and about the only advice he could offer was to try upping the charge carefully. We discussed the relative lack of room in the .223 for much more powder, but hopefully it'll hold enough.

That said... I went and bought a 'fresh' 1# bottle of RE-15. The plan is to run two tests over the chrono today: first, I have 10 rds of the new lot of RE-15,packaged January 10, 2006) loaded up w/ 24.0gr RE-15,weighed and trickled on a Redding #2 beam scale) seated to 2.250". Second, I have five rounds each of 24.2, 24.4gr, etc... on up using the 'old' Nov. 2004 lot of powder.

As far as sizing and neck tension... this particular batch was sized w/ a Redding Type 'S' F/L die w/ .245 bushing & carbide expander ball on a Redding Big Boss press, and seated w/ a Forster Ultra BR die. I may need more neck tension as the more heavily compacted loads are backing the bullet out a tad... seems like the wrong solution to me, but we'll see. I do have other primers to try if it comes down to that.

Should be a lovely day for range testing... solid overcast, light drizzle, no wind... perfect day for a set of IR screens!.

 

[memilanuk]

Well... this RE-15 is some weird stuff. I guess it's time to start experimenting w/ primers now.

Shot 10rds of the new lot... almost exactly the same avg. velocity as the older stuff. Wonderful.

Then I go thru and shoot the 5 rd strings working up from 24.2gr to 25.0gr of the old lot. BTW, 24.8-25.0gr is enough that the bullets are backing out of the case slightly w/o additional neck tension. I think by 25gr I finally had an average MV over 2600fps. *NO* pressure signs. Absolutely none. Zip, zero, nada.

Just for reference I shot some 75gr Hornady BTHP/ 23.5gr AA2230C/7-1/2 loads I had in a magazine that was handy... 2764fps avg, w/ some slight flattening of the primer,blaster ammo, not terribly accurate in my guns). But that's about what I expect,and have seen in the past) from that load.

Like I said, time to start playing w/ primers. I've got some BR4s, 450s, 205Ms, WSRs, and maybe some straight 400s sittting around here. I've always been pretty lucky and found loads that worked pretty well w/o having to really experiment w/ different primers too much. Guess I was overdue?

 

[Forum Boss]

Monte,

Suggest you try some H4895. I've heard nothing but very positive reports on this powder in the .223, with both heavy bullets and light.

 

[memilanuk]

Paul,

I do have some of that... along with about every common powder in that burn range.

It'll be Sunday at the earliest before I get a chance to work on this some more... starting night shift again tonight, gotta get up early tomorrow and go and see a man about a gun... Picking up a used Glock 34

I want to try some different primers,as suggested) first before I give up on this powder for the .223 Rem. Something just seems really weird here w/ that much powder jammed in there and no pressure signs.

Monte

 

[memilanuk]

An update for those still watching...

Loaded up five rounds each w/ Fed205Ms, CCI BR4s, and CCI 450s.

Max velocity was from the 450s... at about 2610fps.

Took the CZ452 American w/ some Eley Tenex,about 7 years old) and the 40X w/ the new Lilja 29.5" stainless 1-8" twist 6mm BR barrel and some Lapua 105gr Scenar factory loads along to day to chrono for reference to check the chrono.

The Eley Tenex chrono'ed right at an average of 1035fps, which IIRC sounds about right.

The Lapua 105gr Scenar ammo clocked at an average of 2677fps, which sounds kind of slow from a barrel that length.

Ran some load workup w/ AA2460,had some handy) and it clocked just about as expected.

Pretty much out of ideas at this point as to why RE-15 doesn't seem to be working as expected. Two different lots of powder, three different barrels, four different primers... ????

 

[Johnboy]

their is one other thing that you can do.and that is to ackleyize it