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Quickload vs. N150?

memilanuk

Gold $$ Contributor
Anybody here that uses N150 ever ran the numbers through QuickLoad?

I'm having a tough time making things match up - without jacking up the Ba rate 8-10%,i.e. quite a bit). And then the OBT node doesn't match up worth a darn...

The initial projected velocities from QL for a .308 Win pushing 155.5gr Fullbore bullets using N150 were so low I almost didn't run the test at all. As it is... the velocities are quite a bit higher than projected, and so far are looking pretty promising,in terms of avg/ES)... just don't want to end up with something that resembles a grenade later in the year

Guess I'm back to doing load workup the old-fashioned way - find what works on paper, first, then go back and find out what it's doing.

Monte
 
Did you check the average water capacity of fired cases? A 1-grain difference in 6 BR can raise pressures ~4 ksi. The defaults sometimes vary considerably from my cases, both as a function of brass and chamber.

My 6 BR usually shoots a little faster than QuickLOAD predicts but my 6 Remington is a little slower. I have also found that Alliant RL17 velocities are fairly close but pressure seems to be overestimated. This may be due to the full-penetration deterrent in that powder and the way it affects the pressure curve.
 
Yes. This is using otherwise 'known-good' parameters in QuickLoad from my rifle; the only thing changed is the powder selection.
 
How many grains are you using?

In my 30' Palma rifle, Winchester cases have a capacity of 55.4 grains water. QL produced the attached data. The pressure looks very low and it looks like N540 would be a better fit.,see attached) You may just be seeing this behavior from powder burning characteristics associated with low pressure. The loading density is great, N150 just seems too slow for the application.
 

Attachments

I played with it a few months back, based on recommendations from Bob Pitcairn out of Chilliwack, BC. He shoots N150 in .223 Rem,80gr bullets), .308,155gr), 6 BR,105-107) and another shooter in his area shoots it out of a 6 Dasher. He reported single-digit ES in both the .308 and .223, which isn't the easiest thing to achieve in my experience. Since I have all those calibers and currently use either Varget or RE15 for them, I thought it would be worth a go.

I don't recall exactly what I tried; my little steno notebook from that I used for load notes went missing. The recommended loads were 46.5-47.3gr N150 behind a B155.5BT, depending on whether using Lapua or Winchester brass. My Lapua brass measures 55.8gr H20, while Winchester measures 57.10gr.

The pressures do look very low indeed, as do the projected velocities. This does not match up with the reported results that I have been hearing at all. Somewhere along the line I thought I heard that the batch of N150 that the people who put together the data for QuickLoad was off somehow; thats doubly odd because one of the things I hear the most about Vihtavouri powders in general and N150 in particular is they are supposed to be *extremly* consistent lot to lot.

Looks like I'll have to go about doing my load development w/ N150 the old-fashioned way - GUESS.
 
FWIW, the VV reloading data lists N150 for 155gr bullets, so you are not that far off. They show 46.6 N150 driving a Sierra 155 at 2760 from a 24' barrel.

Good luck.
 
I *really* wish I'd kept better track of my notes... I swear I was getting somewhere in the upper 2900 fps range using a 30' barrel,Savage 12 Palma) - which is about what I was looking for, but not what QL projected.

Then again, N135 occasionally comes up as being a 'go-to' powder for Palma loads - IIRC its burn rate is somewhere closer to H/I4895. Maybe I'll try some of that as well. Lord knows with all the HBR shooters around here, N135 is one powder that the stores keep in stock as much as possible ;)
 
I have the same problem with the N-150 and Lapua Scenes L 120gr in 6.5x55 SE. Charges and crono speed fits well with n-140, could the wrong label be the error?
 
I shot a lot of N150 / 155 rounds with my first proper F-TR rifle back around 2009/10. While I used Lapua brass, F210M 185 Juggernaut and N150 for long-range and GB league matches, I used 1980s thin-wall Norma brass F210M, 155.5gn and later the 155gn Dyer HBC VLD over N150 for short/mid range club matches.

The thin-wall Norma brass in my chamber had 0.4gn greater fireformed water capacity than Winchester (57.4gn v 57.0gn) and the throat was cut for the long 155gn Lapua Scenar seated at a bit under a calibre which fortuitously turned out about right for the 185 Juggernaut when it appeared. The barrel was a 1:10 Broughton and I tried anything and everything in in it up to the 210gn Berger BT and 208gn AMax, the uber-heavies of the time.

With the 155.5 BT, I ran test loads up to 48gn N150 in the old thin-wall 160gn weight Norma cases. This brass was known as being 'roomy', but not as the strongest around. (UK 'Match Rifle' shooters who shoot some horrendously long-throat chamber and high pressure 190-220gn 308 loads had dallied with them but abandoned them as case life was very short to nil!) The (optical) chronograph said 2,985 fps at 48gn. I got better groups at 47 though and adopted that. When the 155 HBC bullet appeared in the UK at a steal of a price back then, I tried it and found that 47gn N150 gave 0.3" or better 100 yard 5-round groups and 2,950 fps, still in the thin Norma brass and with the Fed 210M. I used this combination in club matches up to 600 yards and had some very good scores and a few wins, some of them highest score of the day beating all F/O competitors. (Times were very different in 2010 - not a chance today!)

Having just run 47 and 48gn through QuickLOAD in 57.4gn water capacity brass, the program underestimates MVs by the best part of 100 fps. I was told at the time that Broughtons were 'tight', but I've no idea if that was true or not, but if so that could account for some of the discrepancy. QL also calculates very heavily compressed fill-ratios of up to 112% with this combination - which is way out. (I find this a perennial issue with Viht powders in QL - it believes I run everything with 110% ratios or higher.)

As I said, the brass wasn't renowned for longevity and to get up to those MVs, QL says I had to be running right on maximum SAAMI pressures calculated at >61,900 psi for 2,985 fps with N150 and ~59,000 psi for my 2,950 fps match load, but I got several firings out of the cases, no leaking primer pockets or anything and they'd be retired after half a dozen cycles when primer pockets just started to feel slack - same as I was getting from Lapua brass at the time with slightly higher MVs. So I don't believe I was running really high pressures. No case-head marks or any other excessive pressure signs.

I wouldn't try N540 in your shoes. We in the UK did back in 2009 with the 155gn Scenar at 3,074 fps in Lapua brass from a 30-inch slow-twist Bartlein in my rifle and two friends with the same barrels from a single order running a bit hotter at just over 3,100 fps. Their barrels failed at 1,100 rounds, mine was nearly kaput at 1,500 - still performing but the borescope said it wouldn't for much longer, and I wanted to go to a faster twist anyway to try 185-210s. After a season or two of F-TR, GB shooters went 'off' this particular powder in a big way - and we pair shoot here as you know, and it's generally a lot cooler than in the lower 48, so it'd be a real barrel-killer in US F-TR.
 
First...upload_2018-10-4_20-11-1.jpeg

This is/was a 2009 thread.

Second. My load numbers with current lots of N150 are not that different from other people running Varget.

I have a load with 200.20x bullets, BTO loaded rounds of 2.398(way longer than anyone should be) loading over 44.9 and I get 2675FPS

I have another chamber that BTO is 2.335 with the 200.20x loaded over 44.1gr I get 2625 FPS

Both are jumping 10 to 13, loaded in Lapua Palma brass with Tula Primers in 1:10 30" barrels.

I think that the burn rate charts have N150 misplaced by quite a bit, listing it in generally the same place as H4350 is very misleading. For comparison, I've also done some load development with both of these powders using 215s in the same barrel, H4350 needs in the range of 48gr to get the same velocity as 41ish grains of N150.
 
I think that the burn rate charts have N150 misplaced by quite a bit, listing it in generally the same place as H4350 is very misleading. For comparison, I've also done some load development with both of these powders using 215s in the same barrel, H4350 needs in the range of 48gr to get the same velocity as 41ish grains of N150.

2009? :oops:

Absolutely! H4350 and N150 are nowhere near comparable! Burn rate charts are the work of the devil and just exist to mislead people. :)

Norma has a different type of burn rate chart - maybe not better in every respect but different. It takes a Norma case, 43.2gn powder and 147gn FMJ bullet in 308 Win and uses the same load for every powder measuring pressure and MV. The results of these two values with IMR-4350 are used as the baseline at 100, everything else given a relative value

For the three relevant grades Norma says:

IMR-4350 .......... pressure 100 .............. MV 100
H4350 ............... pressure 94.9 ............. MV 100.0
N150 ................. pressure 118.0 ........... MV 115.7
 
I *really* wish I'd kept better track of my notes... I swear I was getting somewhere in the upper 2900 fps range using a 30' barrel,Savage 12 Palma) - which is about what I was looking for, but not what QL projected.

Then again, N135 occasionally comes up as being a 'go-to' powder for Palma loads - IIRC its burn rate is somewhere closer to H/I4895. Maybe I'll try some of that as well. Lord knows with all the HBR shooters around here, N135 is one powder that the stores keep in stock as much as possible ;)

Monte,
Contact me at support@capstonepg.com. I can help. I used N-550 with the 155gr bullets in my PALMA rifle. Worked great! Also N-150 is the first VIHTAVUORI powder that the decoppering and temp stability agents were added to.
 
Monte,
Contact me at support@capstonepg.com. I can help. I used N-550 with the 155gr bullets in my PALMA rifle. Worked great! Also N-150 is the first VIHTAVUORI powder that the decoppering and temp stability agents were added to.

Hey there Phil,

I ended up using the heck out of N150 behind the B155.5BTs in a .308 Win... took a few gold medals @ Bisley with it back in 2009. The case was stuffed about as full as they get... *definitely* a compressed load, and I don't think you want me telling people how I fit it all in there :rolleyes:

Haven't tried it much with the 200 gn bullets - I know some who have had phenomenal success with it, and others (myself) who found other powders like N140 to work better. Again, I think some of that comes down to case fill, and how much you are willing to stuff it all in there.

Monte
 

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