QUESTIONS FROM A NEWBE ONN 223 LONG RANGE....

[NDAR15MAN]

JUST starting to get interested in long range shooting. always been a coyote hunter and prairie dog hunter. I was able to buy a T36 scope really worth the money off of this sight. Now I need to buy a gun for this high power scope. HA HA HA. I am leaning towards a 223 cal because I have a 2500 rounds of factory 55gr FMJ stored away. I know that ammo is not the best for f class shooting but will help me start out to 400 yard shooting and PD hunting with this gun. I can buy 77 gr ammo i think still for a good price. I WILL NOT BE RELOADING.

NOW FOR THE QUESTION....HA HA HA, YOU 223 cal shooters i see use special barrels that will shoot the 80-90 gr bullets that might get you out to 1000 yard targets... question these special twist barrels of 6.5 or 7 can they also shoot 55 gr factory ammo accurately ? i am thinking not. i guess the throat of barrel needs to be bored out bigger on the 223 cal to shoot the 80- 90 gr ?

i have a savage axis 223 that i cut barrel down to 16 1/4 and shoots under a 1 inch group with factory at 100 yards have not shot it any longer. i use this gun for coyote and pd hunting. also have a nice tikka 243 that shoots the same with a 4-16x42 Nikon monarch . so just looking for another cheap gun that could shoot good groups at long range, and factory ammo for this T36 SCOPE.

i am thinking about buying the special CABLEAS SAVAGE 223 FV. HAS 26 INCH BARREL with accura trigger for $419.00 on sale to end of June and then they send you a $100.00 refund check also. so gun is only $319.00 really. then i will put the T36 scope on it. i guess a 223 bolt gun that can shoot a 80-90 gr bullet 1000.00 yards will not shoot not shoot a 55 gr FMJ 600 yards ? your thoughts. Martyd

 

[Dave Berg]

Where to start?

A faster than necessary twist doesn't necessarily mean loss of accuracy. I have 8" and 9" twists (which is what the Cabela's Savage is) that shoot 52 grain bullets very well.

That rifle won't be slinging 80-90 grain bullets at any distance. 69 grains is probably your upper weight limit for stability. Ballistic coefficient becomes irrelevant when the bullet is traveling end over end.

"Good" factory 223 ammo in the 75-77 grain range is not going to be cheap. The Prvi 75 grain at 50 cents is probably the best deal around and it shoots - unfortunately that Savage most likely won't spin it fast enough. Prvi does make a 69 grain HPBT that should work for around the same price if you can find it.

 

[sdneil]

Looks like the Savage FV has a 9 twist which is fine for your 55 gr FMJ....as for the 80 grainers a 8 twist..and 90 grainers a 7 twist...you will most likely need an MOA base under your T 36...good luck....

 

[Shynloco]

JUST starting to get interested in long range shooting. always been a coyote hunter and prairie dog hunter. I was able to buy a T36 scope really worth the money off of this sight. Now I need to buy a gun for this high power scope. HA HA HA. I am leaning towards a 223 cal because I have a 2500 rounds of factory 55gr FMJ stored away. I know that ammo is not the best for f class shooting but will help me start out to 400 yard shooting and PD hunting with this gun. I can buy 77 gr ammo i think still for a good price. I WILL NOT BE RELOADING.

NOW FOR THE QUESTION....HA HA HA, YOU 223 cal shooters i see use special barrels that will shoot the 80-90 gr bullets that might get you out to 1000 yard targets... question these special twist barrels of 6.5 or 7 can they also shoot 55 gr factory ammo accurately ? i am thinking not. i guess the throat of barrel needs to be bored out bigger on the 223 cal to shoot the 80- 90 gr ?

i have a savage axis 223 that i cut barrel down to 16 1/4 and shoots under a 1 inch group with factory at 100 yards have not shot it any longer. i use this gun for coyote and pd hunting. also have a nice tikka 243 that shoots the same with a 4-16x42 Nikon monarch . so just looking for another cheap gun that could shoot good groups at long range, and factory ammo for this T36 SCOPE.

i am thinking about buying the special CABLEAS SAVAGE 223 FV. HAS 26 INCH BARREL with accura trigger for $419.00 on sale to end of June and then they send you a $100.00 refund check also. so gun is only $319.00 really. then i will put the T36 scope on it. i guess a 223 bolt gun that can shoot a 80-90 gr bullet 1000.00 yards will not shoot not shoot a 55 gr FMJ 600 yards ? your thoughts. Martyd

If you are going to shoot long distance (600 yds to 1K) you be needing a 1:8 - 1:9 twist barrel for the 77's and bigger. The 55's will never make that distance and will break up half way home.

Alex

 

[boltgunluvr]

1K not happening as is. A few basic things to consider.....you may have a decent 600 yard gun with nice hand loaded ammo, but you stated you weren't reloading. Don't assume that rifle will group those factory 55 gr fmj rounds. Those may be fmj boat tail bullets and there are rifles of all calibers/cartridges that may absolutely hate boat tails.

I've only had one rifle out of numerous guns that would actually group a specific factory ammo. However, it didn't group at long distances. If you want whatever rifle you acquire to group, reload! It's fun and not a massive investment like some believe it is. Oh yes, one more thing. Don't get too focused on BC claims. BC means didley squat if your gun won't group it. Have fun.

 

[NDAR15MAN]

Folks thanks for the good info on the pm's. Question so if a. 223 barrel in 7 twist or 8 twist will shoot 80 gr to 90 gr hand loads with that barrel still shoot 1 moa with 55 gr factory ammo ? Thanks. Marty

 

[Rtheurer]

You would be better off going with a 308 Factory Rifle than a 223 in this endeavor. A savage in 308 with good Factory 175gr Match ammo will get it done. A lot Easier than trying to make the 223 do it without getting into some specialty equipment. ( Reloading gear and 1/7 twist Barrel)
Since your on the East side of the state I can only imagine, you plan to go to Bismarck or over to East MN to shoot as those are the only two 1000 Yard ranges in your region. Play it safe for those folks that are in the pits pulling targets.... Get the right equipment.

 

[boltman223]

You would be better off going with a 308 Factory Rifle than a 223 in this endeavor. A savage in 308 with good Factory 175gr Match ammo will get it done. A lot Easier than trying to make the 223 do it without getting into some specialty equipment. ( Reloading gear and 1/7 twist Barrel)
Since your on the East side of the state I can only imagine, you plan to go to Bismarck or over to East MN to shoot as those are the only two 1000 Yard ranges in your region. Play it safe for those folks that are in the pits pulling targets.... Get the right equipment.

Nah, I've shot 80 smk's (I don't think 55's would be the best idea) at Bismarck a few times. They do ok at 1000. There have been days there though where even the best shooters get blown off target even in f-open.

I agree you're limited by a 9 twist for longer ranges and even more so if not reloading, but don't be discouraged though you can find something to get the job done. If you really want to get the 223 go for it and when the time comes you can throw a different barrel on it and make it what you need/want.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Folks for the good info on the pm's. Question so if a. 223 barrel in 7 twist or 8 twist will shoot 80 gr to 90 gr hand loads with that barrel still shoot 1 moa with 55 gr factory ammo ? Thanks. Marty

Won't happen. 55 gr weight bullet is not for 1K yards. You may get it to group that bullet weight BUT you'd have to slow it down to not damage/deform the bullet jacket due to attempting to spin it at too high of velocity.

Rtheurer has it correct. Better off going with a good .308 Win with 1/12 to 1/10 using 175 gr SMK OR even .243 Win with 1/9.125 twist using 95 gr SMK. I love my .308 but my .243 Win (6mm) shoots pretty damn flat and technically bucks the wind better. It has to do with sectional density of the bullet...........anyway...............

If you really want that kind of performance, you must reload.

 

[Rtheurer]

Nah, I've shot 80 smk's (I don't think 55's would be the best idea) at Bismarck a few times. They do ok at 1000. There have been days there though where even the best shooters get blown off target even in f-open.

I agree you're limited by a 9 twist for longer ranges and even more so if not reloading, but don't be discouraged though you can find something to get the job done. If you really want to get the 223 go for it and when the time comes you can throw a different barrel on it and make it what you need/want.

What factory 80gr Ammo can he shoot and will it work in his proposed 1:9 twist? So my advice must be poor and yours is right in line with what he is trying to do..... Hmmm?

 

[boltman223]

Won't happen. 55 gr weight bullet is not for 1K yards. You may get it to group that bullet weight BUT you'd have to slow it down to not damage/deform the bullet jacket due to attempting to spin it at too high of velocity.

Rtheurer has it correct. Better off going with a good .308 Win with 1/12 to 1/10 using 175 gr SMK OR even .243 Win with 1/9.125 twist using 95 gr SMK. I love my .308 but my .243 Win (6mm) shoots pretty damn flat and technically bucks the wind better. It has to do with sectional density of the bullet...........anyway...............

If you really want that kind of performance, you must reload.

What factory 80gr Ammo can he shoot and will it work in his proposed 1:9 twist? So my advice must be poor and yours is right in line with what he is trying to do..... Hmmm?

Sorry should have been more specific and i think it was easy to take out if context. I Was just saying the lighter bullets can do it, not saying 55's can

And no 80 grain factory loads I know of. And 9 is too slow for them anyways. He might be able to shoot the 77 grain fiocci ammo. I shot Them at 1000 once, just for some Foulers because I was low on ammo. They did ok.

And I think that most likely the 55 fmj's wont come apart (55 grain vmaxes didn't with a 7 twist) and 55 fmj's at 600, I've seen it done Just a couple weeks ago. They got blown around a lot, but stayed on target and with a better wind reader they would have done better for sure.

Can you get accuracy out if a 223 set up for the 90's with light bullets such as a 55 grain bullet, yep you sure can. I've seen that too. And 1 moa with factory ammo wouldn't be surprising.

And I don't disagree that a 308 would be a better choice if a 9 twist 223 is the other option. And the fact that there is better/more choices of 308 ammo for long range. If the 223 was my only choice would I do it, yep. Especially a savage when you can change a barrel si easily.

 

[NDAR15MAN]

Yep I agree I use to live in Fargo. I was a production mgr for DMI. Wind tower co. They changed hands so know I love in work on muscatine iowa. I don't shoot competion just pd and coyotes and targets. I bought the cabelas savage fv today. To good of deal to pass up. I think I will just use the 233 pit to 600 yards and my tikka 243 to 800 yards. Cannot take the recoil of 308 anymore, torn rotator surgeries. Martyd

You would be better off going with a 308 Factory Rifle than a 223 in this endeavor. A savage in 308 with good Factory 175gr Match ammo will get it done. A lot Easier than trying to make the 223 do it without getting into some specialty equipment. ( Reloading gear and 1/7 twist Barrel)
Since your on the East side of the state I can only imagine, you plan to go to Bismarck or over to East MN to shoot as those are the only two 1000 Yard ranges in your region. Play it safe for those folks that are in the pits pulling targets.... Get the right equipment.

e

 

[NDAR15MAN]

Yep I agree I use to live in Fargo. I was a production mgr for DMI. Wind tower co. They changed hands so know I love in work on muscatine iowa. I don't shoot competion just pd and coyotes and targets. I bought the cabelas savage fv today. To good of deal to pass up. I think I will just use the 233 pit to 600 yards and my tikka 243 to 800 yards. Cannot take the recoil of 308 anymore, torn rotator surgeries. Martyd

You would be better off going with a 308 Factory Rifle than a 223 in this endeavor. A savage in 308 with good Factory 175gr Match ammo will get it done. A lot Easier than trying to make the 223 do it without getting into some specialty equipment. ( Reloading gear and 1/7 twist Barrel)
Since your on the East side of the state I can only imagine, you plan to go to Bismarck or over to East MN to shoot as those are the only two 1000 Yard ranges in your region. Play it safe for those folks that are in the pits pulling targets.... Get the right equipment.

Won't happen. 55 gr weight bullet is not for 1K yards. You may get it to group that bullet weight BUT you'd have to slow it down to not damage/deform the bullet jacket due to attempting to spin it at too high of velocity.

Rtheurer has it correct. Better off going with a good .308 Win with 1/12 to 1/10 using 175 gr SMK OR even .243 Win with 1/9.125 twist using 95 gr SMK. I love my .308 but my .243 Win (6mm) shoots pretty damn flat and technically bucks the wind better. It has to do with sectional density of the bullet...........anyway...............

If you really want that kind of performance, you must reload.

What factory 80gr Ammo can he shoot and will it work in his proposed 1:9 twist? So my advice must be poor and yours is right in line with what he is trying to do..... Hmmm?

Just wondering if a gun that has a 7 twist or a 8 twist would shoot 55 gr ammo as good as the 80 or 90 or would gun just be a dedicated 80 or 90 gr gun ? Thanks. Martyd

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've shot many a 40 gr bullet of a 7-twist .223 bolt rifle I also use in F-TR with the 80.5 Fullbores. This rifle has a 26" 7-twist Bartlein barrel with a very short throat and the lighter bullets shoot just fine. However, the converse (an 80 gr+ bullet in a 9-twist barrel) won't work all that well. With a 7-twist barrel, the main criteria that will affect which bullets can be used optimally is the freebore length. You need a longer throat to seat the 80s/90s optimally so you can get sufficient powder into the case. Can you still shoot a 55 in a rifle like that? Possibly. That would largely depend on exactly how far the bullet was off the lands (it would likely be a lot), and how tolerant of jump that specific bullet was. Choosing a tangent ogive bullet known to be relatively insensitive to seating depth changes might help, but is not a guarantee. None of that really matters if you won't be reloading your own.

If you ever do decide to reload, the Berger 80.5 Fullbore is a fantastic bullet and has about the shortest bearing surface available in a high BC 80-something grain bullet. That means it doesn't need the ridiculously long freebore required by the 90 gr bullets. That way, the rifle can be throated to accommodate a wider range of bullet weights. A rifle set up for the 90s isn't likely to be optimal and may not even be useful for shooting lighter weight bullets, they're really dedicated for the long heavy bullets.

FWIW - I've shot many, many of the FGMM 77 SMK load out of the same 26" barreled F-TR bolt gun mentioned above. It shoots that particular commercial load very, very well. However, I can tell you that at 600 yd when the wind comes up, shooting 77s is more like shooting a precision shotgun. The lighter pills simply get pushed around a lot more, even under pretty mild wind conditions, than do the 80-90 gr bullets. If you're planning on shooting past 300-400 yd, the heavier bullets provide a noticeable benefit, but again, they are not generally available in commercial loads and require reloading.

 

[boltman223]

Decided to try some factory ammo out of my 223 that set up for the 90's (7 twist with .169 freebore). The ammo was American eagle AR 55gr fmj's and hornady 55gr sp's. They all made it to target. Hornady was about 1" and the American shot about 1.250"

 

[NDAR15MAN]

T

I've shot many a 40 gr bullet of a 7-twist .223 bolt rifle I also use in F-TR with the 80.5 Fullbores. This rifle has a 26" 7-twist Bartlein barrel with a very short throat and the lighter bullets shoot just fine. However, the converse (an 80 gr+ bullet in a 9-twist barrel) won't work all that well. With a 7-twist barrel, the main criteria that will affect which bullets can be used optimally is the freebore length. You need a longer throat to seat the 80s/90s optimally so you can get sufficient powder into the case. Can you still shoot a 55 in a rifle like that? Possibly. That would largely depend on exactly how far the bullet was off the lands (it would likely be a lot), and how tolerant of jump that specific bullet was. Choosing a tangent ogive bullet known to be relatively insensitive to seating depth changes might help, but is not a guarantee. None of that really matters if you won't be reloading your own.

If you ever do decide to reload, the Berger 80.5 Fullbore is a fantastic bullet and has about the shortest bearing surface available in a high BC 80-something grain bullet. That means it doesn't need the ridiculously long freebore required by the 90 gr bullets. That way, the rifle can be throated to accommodate a wider range of bullet weights. A rifle set up for the 90s isn't likely to be optimal and may not even be useful for shooting lighter weight bullets, they're really dedicated for the long heavy bullets.

FWIW - I've shot many, many of the FGMM 77 SMK load out of the same 26" barreled F-TR bolt gun mentioned above. It shoots that particular commercial load very, very well. However, I can tell you that at 600 yd when the wind comes up, shooting 77s is more like shooting a precision shotgun. The lighter pills simply get pushed around a lot more, even under pretty mild wind conditions, than do the 80-90 gr bullets. If you're planning on shooting past 300-400 yd, the heavier bullets provide a noticeable benefit, but again, they are not generally available in commercial loads and require reloading.

Thanks for the good info. I bought the cabelas savage 223 fv. I have to find some rings for it. When I get it set up I will report in on how it shoots factory 55 gr ammo. Marty

 

[ZenArchery]

I'm running 1:8 twist out of 20" Wylde barrel out to 1K using handled 69gr SMK and 77gr SMK. You don't need a special twist.

 

[Nomosendero]

I'm running 1:8 twist out of 20" Wylde barrel out to 1K using handled 69gr SMK and 77gr SMK. You don't need a special twist.

Impressive! Have you tried the 69 TMK ?

 

[NDAR15MAN]

Boltman. Thanks for testing your 1/8 twist barrel with the factory 55 gr factory bullet. 1 moa out of your gun is great. I bought the savage 12fv Cabelas because it was a good deal even with the 1/9 twist. $319.00 with rebate. If I get Into this long range shooting I will buy 1/8 twit barrel gun , don't know who makes a factory gun in 1/8 twist under $500.00. ? I could still have Lot of fun shooting prairie dogs with the cheap. 55 gr factory ammo in 1/8 twist 1 moa gun. That is great with factory ammo. Can not as for more really. I wish you could buy factory 80 or 90 gr ammo I don't reload. Martyd

 

[benchracer]

Boltman. Thanks for testing your 1/8 twist barrel with the factory 55 gr factory bullet. 1 moa out of your gun is great. I bought the savage 12fv Cabelas because it was a good deal even with the 1/9 twist. $319.00 with rebate. If I get Into this long range shooting I will buy 1/8 twit barrel gun , don't know who makes a factory gun in 1/8 twist under $500.00. ? I could still have Lot of fun shooting prairie dogs with the cheap. 55 gr factory ammo in 1/8 twist 1 moa gun. That is great with factory ammo. Can not as for more really. I wish you could buy factory 80 or 90 gr ammo I don't reload. Martyd

The Ruger American comes with an 8 twist and retails for $350-$400. Barnes has released an 85 grain OTM loaded to AR mag length, but I wouldn't expect it to get you to 1000 yards.

Expecting to shoot at long range without loading your own ammo is unrealistic. By the time you burn through enough factory ammo to even find something your rifle likes, you will have easily spent more than the cost of a basic reloading setup.