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Question to the Experts about OAL

How far should I stay away from the lands? 2-Thou? 4-Thou? More ? Less?
As I know: If I touch the lands that will increase the pressure - on the other hand I have red that some bullets (like Bergers) like to touch the lands.
What is right - whats wrong?
Thanks for your help.
cheers
Ludwig
 
It all depends on what your gun likes based on the combination of power type, bullet manufacture, weight, case prep, primer etc etc. Let it tell you....Do your load development and record your results. Your gun will... talk to you.

two cents....
 
again too generic of a question...
tell us what type of shooting what cartridge what gun..mag fed ?
some guns like a heavy jam into the lands

few simple answer in this sport
 
ludwig.merk said:
How far should I stay away from the lands? 2-Thou? 4-Thou? More ? Less?
As I know: If I touch the lands that will increase the pressure - on the other hand I have red that some bullets (like Bergers) like to touch the lands.
What is right - whats wrong?
Thanks for your help.
cheers
Ludwig

Neither is right or wrong. You need a process to develop a load that works in your rifle. With respect to jump or jam some guys start say .020 or .015 jammed and then seat the bullet into the case in increments until it is jumping. Some guys soft seat so that the bullets are seated by the lands contact...i.e. the bullet is always just touching the lands.

There is a ton of info on this site on selecting a process to work out how to tune the load for your rifle.
 
6BRinNZ said:
ludwig.merk said:
How far should I stay away from the lands? 2-Thou? 4-Thou? More ? Less?
As I know: If I touch the lands that will increase the pressure - on the other hand I have red that some bullets (like Bergers) like to touch the lands.
What is right - whats wrong?
Thanks for your help.
cheers
Ludwig

Neither is right or wrong. You need a process to develop a load that works in your rifle. With respect to jump or jam some guys start say .020 or .015 jammed and then seat the bullet into the case in increments until it is jumping. Some guys soft seat so that the bullets are seated by the lands contact...i.e. the bullet is always just touching the lands.

There is a ton of info on this site on selecting a process to work out how to tune the load for your rifle.

Yep. You gotta do load development and find out what your rifle likes. Here is one suggestion for your safety. When you have a load that is close to MAX amount of powder dont make big changes in seating distances. Work slowly and in small increments. Good luck on your load development.
 
ludwig.merk said:
How far should I stay away from the lands? 2-Thou? 4-Thou? More ? Less?
As I know: If I touch the lands that will increase the pressure - on the other hand I have red that some bullets (like Bergers) like to touch the lands.
What is right - whats wrong?
Thanks for your help.
cheers
Ludwig

Touch the lands or small distance to the lands improve accuracy but it also rise the pressure up to +25%.
So the weight of the powder load should be reduced about 10% to compensate it.
 
Ludwig,

there are so many 'rules' and 'wrinkles' surrounding this issue, it's often one of the most difficult issues for tyro handloaders to understand. There are 'rules' or guidelines, but there are also in practice many, many exceptions to those rules.

It would help forum members if you state the cartridge, barrel, what sort of throating the manufacturer or rifle-builder has given you (in general terms), and what you're going to use all this for. We're also all or mostly assuming (a dangerous thing!) that given the nature of your question, you know how to measure / ascertain the bullet position in relation to the lands, but are unsure of where you should set it ??

The general rules are:

1) VLD type bullets, or others with aggressive secant ogives (long nose with a sharply defined junction between the parallel shank and nose sections) - seat into the lands, 0.010" and up. (15 thou' is a common starting point for people loading Berger VLDs.)

BUT ...... sometimes VLDs work better with very large jumps of up to 0.080". Berger used to, probably still does, give advice on this issue on its website.

A potential problem with jam-seating is that the bullet may be pulled from the case and left stuck in the leade if a live round has to be unloaded for any reason. As well as leaving the bullet in the barrel and having to be knocked out, powder is usually spilt in the lug recesses and will stop use of the rifle until every last kernel is cleaned out.

As others have pointed out, jam seating increases chamber pressures, all other factors being equal, so a switch from jump to jam may require a reduction in powder charge weight and working up again.

Using QuickLOAD internal ballistics software to model a .308 Win load gives the following results for the Berger 190gn VLD at 2.950 COAL over 44.0gn H. VarGet:

out of the lands (initiation pressure 3,626 psi) 60,071 psi PMax
in the lands (initiation pressure +7,200 psi = 10,826 psi) 69.034 psi PMax, well above SAAMI maximum allowed pressure.

That's an estimated 15% pressure increase from this factor, but in real life it'll depend also on far and how hard the bullet is jam-seated which is partly about COAL the bullet is seated to, but also about case-neck tension on the bullet. If you run with very light tension, the bullet will be pushed back slightly into the case and limit the amount of jam. This may also stop you de-bulleting any round that that has to be unloaded.


2) traditional ~7-calibre nose-radius tangent ogive form bullets typified by most (but not ALL) Sierra MatchKings that are said to be 'jump tolerant'. People may run from 5 to 50 thou' (or more for magazine fed rifles where the COAL is determined by the magazine depth) jump, but 10-20 thou' is a typical starting point in load development.

Most people who've looked at this subject recommend a minimum jump of 10 thou', not because small jumps don't work, but to ensure every bullet is jumped. Depending on the bullets' dimensional consistency and the accuracy of your initial measurements, trying to run at say 5 thou' may see some bullets jump at up to that amount, but others just kiss the leade. Any inconsistency in this is almost guaranteed to increase group sizes, maybe produce really bad 'fliers' outside the group. Personally, I've always started at 0.015" with this type of bullet and it usually works well in most barrels and chambers.

That's not to say such bullets don't work well seated into the lands. If you look at German Salazar's Rifleman's Journal weblog

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.uk/

and look for his .30-06 loading articles that feature both traditional Sierra tangent ogive number such as the .308" 190gn MK and out and out VLDs, German seats them all 'in'. This is a guy who knows what he's doing and if he does this, it's because he gets more consistent results than jumping his bullets.

3) some bullets that don't seem to play by the 'rules'. The new 155gn Sierra Palma MK (p/n 2156) has a reputation for liking a large jump and many users are running at ~0.040". My experience with some .30 cal Berger Hybrids is that they either have to treated as a VLD and seated 'in', or (and I've not tried this) may be like the new Sierra and need a larger jump than a conventional tangent ogive type.

The final thing about all this is that as everybody else is saying, let your barrel tell you what it likes, and that's even more about bullet model than COAL. Sometimes a bullet that won't perform is magically transformed by a change in jump, but often the barrel simply doesn't like that model for some reason and playing around with COALs won't cure the problem.
 
Excellent post. Many times shooters will take loads from a manual without doing much if any testing. For these shooters it is probably best to stay out of the lands, because among their ranks are the ones that start with the highest load listed, wanting the "best" performance that they can get. On the other hand, some of us take a more sophisticated approach, starting with a more moderate powder charge, and trying charges of increasingly heavier weights while looking for pressure signs. For this group, seating into the lands is always an option, providing a full test is done with that seating. Where you will get into trouble is when you change some part of a load without dropping your load significantly, and working back up to see where the first pressure signs occur. An old friend, now gone, was the impatient sort. He had a couple of hot varmint rifles (.220 Swift AI, and .22-250 AI) that he had worked up top pressure loads for using Federal primers. These sorts of case designs do not show pressure on the primer like typical factory designs. After shooting them for some time, he ran out of Federal primers and switched to Winchester, without dropping back and reworking his loads, and promptly blew primers out of the cases with both rifles. Not being satisfied with that, he did it another time. Luckily he was not hurt. When I told him that he needed to drop his load and retest, his reply was that he didn't have time! It was at that point that I came up with the term "chronograph idiot" which I use to describe shooters that reload without proper regard to safety, and are primarily driven by the velocity numbers that their chronographs provide. If you are one of those once over lightly, I don't have time guys, stay out of the rifling.
 

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