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Question on velocity

So everyone seems to say you have to stay at 1.2 MACH or higher at 1000 yards for it to shoot good at distance. But reading and talking to some people seems you only need to remain supersonic (1129 fps) . So what is the "right" way to look at it?

Using JBM some bullet/velocity will provide over 1129@1000 yd but isn't at 1.2 MACH. So would that work?
 
it also has to do with stability, when bullets start going transsonic, they become unstable
 
Here is a good read on it: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/08/practical-thoughts-about-transonic-bullet-stability-and-accuracy/
 
Theory is great but in practice, hundreds of thousands of 175gr SMKs have been propelled out of 308 barrels with amazing accuracy at 1000yds in the 'trans-sonic zone'.
 
kelbro said:
Theory is great but in practice, hundreds of thousands of 175gr SMKs have been propelled out of 308 barrels with amazing accuracy at 1000yds in the 'trans-sonic zone'.

It depends on what you mean by 'amazing accuracy'. What I said there was that in an F/TR environment of a half-MOA 'V-Bull' and 1-MOA 'Bull', a load that gave around 70 fps higher MV than the M118LR did not perform well at 1,000 yards, in fact it performed rather poorly.

That was with a load that produced one of my smallest ever 100yd 5-shot groups with the .308 Win and which performed very well indeed to 800 yards in actual competition. 900 yards saw a falling-off and 1,000 saw a really big deterioration in the prevailing conditions. The latter point is crucial - a marginally ballistically adequate BC + velocity combination may perform extremely well in low atmospheric pressure conditions, 5,000 ft ASL in 100-deg F temperatures. This was the Scottish Highlands in temperatures that dropped to damn near freezing with a stiff headwind that strengthened in squalls. Put those conditions together and some bullets would likely be just supersonic, other just subsonic, but it was also obvious that wind changes affected this combination far more than the ballistic program predicted once the bullet became transonic. USMC snipers says the same thing about this bullet in the M118LR - 800 metres is the tipping point at that velocity.

Incidentally, the same 24-inch barrel rifle performed very much better at 1K using a 190gn Sierra MK load. That bullet has a longstanding reputation for happily sailing through the transonic zone and coping with dropping through the sound barrier. GB and the British Commonwealth countries have a form of prone rifle competition called 'Match Rifle' that is only shot at 1,000yd and up and is limited to .308 Win. Until the current generation of 210gn VLDs appeared, the 190 and 200gn SMKs were the norm because of their transonic speed good manners out to 1,200 yards (or more on some ranges in Australia).

The whole point about transonic speed bullet performance is that ballistic programs become less trustworthy, Once a bullet drops below 1.2-MACH, the pressure wave that had been riding ahead of the bullet clear of its nose moves back and that can cause turbulence. Because bullets have curves, from 1.2-MACH downwards you get supersonic air around some parts of the bullet body and subsonic around others. Some bullet cope fine with this, some don't at all and become unstable, some fall in between. The only way to find out is to actually try them out or rely on the experience of those who already have. In my case I found the 0.224" 80gn Sierra MK did fine at 1K even tho' it went through the target silently being subsonic and the butts crew missing its passage, the 0.308" 190gn SMK also performed fine, the 180gn was unstable, and the 175gn stable but grouping poorly.
 
I think that bullet rpm has something to do with how well a bullet drops through the sound barrier. I'm saying that if a bullet is on the edge of being unstable when it passes through the sonic turbulance it does become unstable and begins to wobble. like when a top is spinning fast and crosses a crack it remains stable but if it has slowed down and crosses the same crack it begins to wobble
 
Good info Laurie. I may try the 190s some day. If they can beat the consistent one MOA that I get out of the 175s in a 1:10 25" barrel, I would be one happy camper.
 
treeman said:
I think that bullet rpm has something to do with how well a bullet drops through the sound barrier. I'm saying that if a bullet is on the edge of being unstable when it passes through the sonic turbulance it does become unstable and begins to wobble. like when a top is spinning fast and crosses a crack it remains stable but if it has slowed down and crosses the same crack it begins to wobble
[br]
Bullet RPM slows relatively little during flight and bullets become more stable as velocity decreases. The bullet design is what gives it forgiving or unforgiving qualities during transonic flight.
 
As I understand it and have been told is the vlds linger in the transition zone longer and are disturbed more by this. The bullets that cross thru faster suffer less of the effects.
 
savageshooter86 said:
So everyone seems to say you have to stay at 1.2 MACH or higher at 1000 yards for it to shoot good at distance. But reading and talking to some people seems you only need to remain supersonic (1129 fps) . So what is the "right" way to look at it?

Using JBM some bullet/velocity will provide over 1129@1000 yd but isn't at 1.2 MACH. So would that work?

Stay above 1.2 Mach in the first instance.

If you can't - try it and see - results might vary from trip to trip though.
 
kelbro said:
Good info Laurie. I may try the 190s some day. If they can beat the consistent one MOA that I get out of the 175s in a 1:10 25" barrel, I would be one happy camper.

Have a look at the Berger 175gn OTM Tactical too, although it's a much more expensive bullet than any opf the SMKs. It's designed to remain completely stable throughout the entire range of speeds down to subsonic when fired in a 1-11.25" rifling twist and at around AR-10, M110 etc MVs, ie ~2,600 fps. Your twist rate will spin the bullet a bit too fast, but might still work if the velocities aren't too high. I've loaded up 25 of these bullets over IMR-4895 to use in a 1-12" twist 22-inch barrel factory Howa 1500 Varminter to see if they'll perform at longer ranges in a shorter barrel rifle like this that aspiring F/TR newcomers or competitors on a budget might consider. In the Howa's case with its slower twist barrel, I had to get higher velocities than 2,600 to achieve Bryan Litz's designed spin rate (166,400 rpm at 2,600 fps MV in 1-11.25, but I don't know exactly how critical that is). I haven't had the chance to try this combination yet, but it'll be interesting.
 
6BRinNZ said:
savageshooter86 said:
So everyone seems to say you have to stay at 1.2 MACH or higher at 1000 yards for it to shoot good at distance. But reading and talking to some people seems you only need to remain supersonic (1129 fps) . So what is the "right" way to look at it?

Using JBM some bullet/velocity will provide over 1129@1000 yd but isn't at 1.2 MACH. So would that work?

Stay above 1.2 Mach in the first instance.

If you can't - try it and see - results might vary from trip to trip though.


That's it exactly!
 

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