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Question on OBT

Appreciate the help! I should have said that I'm shooting 123gr. Scenars. I just saw a post where a fellow w/ a 260 AI shooting MRP in Palma brass had a couple of FTFs although the primer went off. Sounded as if he was shooting in the freezing cold.
Harry
 
Don't need a camera. Just need to work up a load on an OBT node and see how it shoots. After purchasing Quickload, I found [retroactively] that several extremely good loads I had worked up using another method [ladder] were spot on OBT nodes. ........ snip..............

I wish that were my experience, but it wasn't.

I have several different competition guns in two different calibers. I actually enjoy careful testing and load development which I do in the old fashioned way using 5 shot groups measured using ON TARGET software and cataloged in a comprehensive Excel Spread sheet.

I use QL to help determine which loads may prove dangerous and use that as a guide so that my charge weight tests are within reason.

Generally speaking, I find that QL does a good job predicting the actual muzzle velocity I achieve in my various guns. I also tend to see pressure signs just about the point where QL claims things are getting dangerous, so I'm guessing their pressure calculations are pretty good as well. In other words, the QL theories match well with my real world measurements.

I had just the opposite experience using OBT.

When I became aware of OBT I compared the OBT predictions with my carefully measured real-world results which were both tested on paper at the target and proven in competitive matches. Many of these charges are match winners. I was unable to find ANY correlation between OBT and my carefully gathered test data. There was not a single instance of a OBT prediction which matched up with what I know to be a successful recipe in my several guns.

That's not to say the OP can't make OBT work for him, but in my experience, relying on OBT to predict ANY of my match winning recipes would have simply resulted in wasting a lot of time and ammo barking up the wrong tree. If it can't match my well tested "good stuff", how can I rely on it to help predict a recipe for a new gun? It just doesn't work with my 6mm or .223 competition guns, or my practice guns either.
 
I wish that were my experience, but it wasn't.

I have several different competition guns in two different calibers. I actually enjoy careful testing and load development which I do in the old fashioned way using 5 shot groups measured using ON TARGET software and cataloged in a comprehensive Excel Spread sheet.

I use QL to help determine which loads may prove dangerous and use that as a guide so that my charge weight tests are within reason.

Generally speaking, I find that QL does a good job predicting the actual muzzle velocity I achieve in my various guns. I also tend to see pressure signs just about the point where QL claims things are getting dangerous, so I'm guessing their pressure calculations are pretty good as well. In other words, the QL theories match well with my real world measurements.

I had just the opposite experience using OBT.

When I became aware of OBT I compared the OBT predictions with my carefully measured real-world results which were both tested on paper at the target and proven in competitive matches. Many of these charges are match winners. I was unable to find ANY correlation between OBT and my carefully gathered test data. There was not a single instance of a OBT prediction which matched up with what I know to be a successful recipe in my several guns.

That's not to say the OP can't make OBT work for him, but in my experience, relying on OBT to predict ANY of my match winning recipes would have simply resulted in wasting a lot of time and ammo barking up the wrong tree. If it can't match my well tested "good stuff", how can I rely on it to help predict a recipe for a new gun? It just doesn't work with my 6mm or .223 competition guns, or my practice guns either.
Never has for me. Larry
 
Likewise, I can point to myself and a number of other shooters that have enjoyed quite a bit of success using OBT nodes in reloading for F-Class rifles. So there you have it. Ultimately, any individual will have to decide whether to try it, and if they do, whether they are satisfied with the results. If not, fortunately there are plenty of other approaches that also have very good track records for success. The only real advantage I have found using QL and OBT nodes is that it gets me there slightly faster and saves on the total number of rounds I have to load. Other than that, the different methods I have used seem to be about the same, and if done correctly, end up at similar spots.
 
There are so many different ways to "predict" accurate loads it might be interesting to see if there is any theoretical correlation between them.
We have the ladder test, the Optimal Charge Weight, the node timing, the charge density method, and probably more that I have not heard of.
We also know that rarely do two barrels give the same velocities with identical loads. That difference in velocity is going to affect the node timing and the charge density results too. The other two use actual results on targets and really have no theoretical math in the development stage. I will stick to using the OCW method as it give the most consistent results for me.
 
image.jpeg Shot two different loads today. I based one off the best OBT (1.333 for a 26") which was the QL data you see pictured here below.
It did not shoot that great in comparison to the same specs but, a OBT of 1.349 at 40.8 grains. It produced far better consistent grouping (numerous sub .5 moa) These two loads each shot 15 groups each.
So, early first tests show that OBT of 1.333 for a 26" is not the best for my rifle. I might add this was FL sized brass not FF as I did not have any emties not prior loaded. I did get an average CC for powder using h20 just for better load data just so, everything was comparable and there was no outlying modifiers between the two loads.
I plan on doing another round of tests.
It was too cold (40* with wind) to shoot another 50 rounds so, my son and I called it a day.
 
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View attachment 994975 Shot two different loads today. I based one off the best OBT (1.333 for a 26") which was the QL data you see pictured here below.
It did not shoot that great in comparison to the same specs but, a OBT of 1.349 at 40.8 grains. It produced far better consistent grouping (numerous sub .5 moa) These two loads each shot 15 groups each.
So, early first tests show that OBT of 1.333 for a 26" is not the best for my rifle. I might add this was FL sized brass not FF as I did not have any emties not prior loaded. I did get an average CC for powder using h20 just for better load data just so, everything was comparable and there was no outlying modifiers between the two loads.
I plan on doing another round of tests.
It was too cold (40* with wind) to shoot another 50 rounds so, my son and I called it a day.

How did you get the 1.349? Powder charge change or seating depth change?
 
Do you think the 1.349 ms value is really different from 1.333 ms in terms of being "in the node"? Node 4 for a 26" barrel is ~1.191 ms and Node 6 is ~ 1.415 ms. 1.349 ms is a lot closer to the Node 5 1.333 ms value in the table than it is to either of the adjacent values. My point is simply that when you look at the values in the OBT table, you find the next OBTs on either side of the 1.333 ms value are much farther away in terms of barrel time (as well as pressure and velocity) than your predicted load barrel time of 1.349 ms. Your QL inputs, how you calibrated QL for your specific setup, and the conditions all have a significant influence on the predicted barrel time readout. 1.349 ms is close enough to the Node 5 table value that the difference could easily be in the inputs or calibration method you used, or possibly even the specific atmospheric conditions.

Did you adjust the Ba for your specific Lot of powder so that predicted and actually velocity match exactly for a given charge weight? How did you determine your case volume? Did you adjust the temperature to match the ambient temperature when you were actually testing these rounds? Have you adjusted the seating depth for this load so as to optimally tune group size? What did the velocity ES/SD values for these two loads look like? Did you use the actual case trim length and bullet OAL? Have you actually measured the length of your barrel from muzzle to boldface? It appears from your file output that you have done some of these things, but you apparently have not yet "calibrated" the Ba for IMR4064 to your specific setup (i.e. set the correct temp, then adjust the Ba until predicted and actual velocities match exactly for a given charge weight). Failure to do all of these things and use the best possible input data for the program can result in predictions that are less precise.

As a result, there is a lot more to tuning a load using OBT nodes than simply trying to approximate some optimized barrel time from the table by adjusting charge weight. You still need to "tune" the charge weight within that window for your specific setup, and further will likely need to optimize seating depth before you have an actual finalized load. With the very best load-specifc QL inputs I can generate, my final optimized load values typically fall just a tick slower than the OBT value printed in the table. For example, I have several loads in 30" barreled rifles that were targeted on Node 4 (1.3684 ms). My final QL barrel times for those loads have typically fallen in the range of ~1.371 to ~1.375 ms, sometimes (rarely) even as slow as 1.380 ms. After calibration, I use QL predictions to get me in relatively close proximity to an OBT Node, then tune it in specifically for my setup, just like I would do using any other approach.

My guess is that your 1.349 ms is running at or very close to Node 5 for your setup. It is certainly much closer to the Node 5 barrel time than it is to those on either side. I would also guess that if you continue development and refine that load to its optimal point, then use the the best measurements, etc., that you have as QL inputs for the finalized version of the load, it will come out a lot closer to 1.333 ms.
 
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image.jpeg
How did you get the 1.349? Powder charge change or seating depth change?

Load difference only. 40.8 vs 41.3

Do you think the 1.349 ms value is really different from 1.333 ms in terms of being "in the node"? Node 4 for a 26" barrel is ~1.191 ms and Node 6 is ~ 1.415 ms. 1.349 ms is a lot closer to the Node 5 1.333 ms value in the table than it is to either of the adjacent values. My point is simply that when you look at the values in the OBT table, you find the next OBTs on either side of the 1.333 ms value are much farther away in terms of barrel time (as well as pressure and velocity) than your predicted load barrel time of 1.349 ms. Your QL inputs, how you calibrated QL for your specific setup, and the conditions all have a significant influence on the predicted barrel time readout. 1.349 ms is close enough to the Node 5 table value that the difference could easily be in the inputs or calibration method you used, or possibly even the specific atmospheric conditions.

Did you adjust the Ba for your specific Lot of powder so that predicted and actually velocity match exactly for a given charge weight? How did you determine your case volume? Did you adjust the temperature to match the ambient temperature when you were actually testing these rounds? Have you adjusted the seating depth for this load so as to optimally tune group size? What did the velocity ES/SD values for these two loads look like? Did you use the actual case trim length and bullet OAL? Have you actually measured the length of your barrel from muzzle to boldface? It appears from your file output that you have done some of these things, but you apparently have not yet "calibrated" the Ba for IMR4064 to your specific setup (i.e. set the correct temp, then adjust the Ba until predicted and actual velocities match exactly for a given charge weight). Failure to do all of these things and use the best possible input data for the program can result in predictions that are less precise.

As a result, there is a lot more to tuning a load using OBT nodes than simply trying to approximate some optimized barrel time from the table by adjusting charge weight. You still need to "tune" the charge weight within that window for your specific setup, and further will likely need to optimize seating depth before you have an actual finalized load. With the very best load-specifc QL inputs I can generate, my final optimized load values typically fall just a tick slower than the OBT value printed in the table. For example, I have several loads in 30" barreled rifles that were targeted on Node 4 (1.3684 ms). My final QL barrel times for those loads have typically fallen in the range of ~1.371 to ~1.375 ms, sometimes (rarely) even as slow as 1.380 ms. After calibration, I use QL predictions to get me in relatively close proximity to an OBT Node, then tune it in specifically for my setup, just like I would do using any other approach.

My guess is that your 1.349 ms is running at or very close to Node 5 for your setup. It is certainly much closer to the Node 5 barrel time than it is to those on either side. I would also guess that if you continue development and refine that load to its optimal point, then use the the best measurements, etc., that you have as QL inputs for the finalized version of the load, it will come out a lot closer to 1.333 ms.

Thanks for the input. Very interesting for sure this OBT.
I am still learning on QL. I am not super sure I have a great understanding of all the features yet but, boy is it interesting learning new things.
I used H20 to measure capacity (did a batch then averaged), I measured actual average Bullet Length, Case trimmed length, COAL, Seated all to .010 off lands measured to ogive. I tried to get most of the info I could on there.
I need to buy another chrono so, I could not get any data from that standpoint.
I have all the data so, I will go back in a see when changed how it effects the output.
I did mention to my son that 1.349 was still very close but, to me it was evident those loads shot a whole lot better then the pictured load.
We both where shooting the loads taking turns as to eliminate the human factor from a single person standpoint.
He did manage to get one good group (pictured) (thats 3 shots) out of the pictured load but, between the both of us that was the only good group. They just didnt want to group well in comparison to the one you said was actually probably closer at 1.349. Most of the ones at 1.349 where like the pictured group.
I appreciate everyones input and will continue too revisit this until I think I have a great understanding of OBT.
 
Thanks for the input. Very interesting for sure this OBT.
I am still learning on QL. I am not super sure I have a great understanding of all the features yet but, boy is it interesting learning new things.
I used H20 to measure capacity (did a batch then averaged), I measured actual average Bullet Length, Case trimmed length, COAL, Seated all to .010 off lands measured to ogive. I tried to get most of the info I could on there.
I need to buy another chrono so, I could not get any data from that standpoint.
I have all the data so, I will go back in a see when changed how it effects the output.
I did mention to my son that 1.349 was still very close but, to me it was evident those loads shot a whole lot better then the pictured load.
We both where shooting the loads taking turns as to eliminate the human factor from a single person standpoint.
He did manage to get one good group (pictured) (thats 3 shots) out of the pictured load but, between the both of us that was the only good group. They just didnt want to group well in comparison to the one you said was actually probably closer at 1.349. Most of the ones at 1.349 where like the pictured group.
I appreciate everyones input and will continue too revisit this until I think I have a great understanding of OBT.

The first thing I do when working up a new load is to input as many load-specific parameters as I can (have), then use the factory preset burn rate and approximate ambient temperature to predict the charge weight corresponding to MAX pressure. I then look for the closest OBT Node underneath MAX pressure, adjusting charge weight to reach the predicted barrel time from the table. I typically back that charge weight off 1-2%, load up some rounds and determine actual muzzle velocity. When using the OBT approach, this is the key "calibration" step that really allows you to take advantage of QL barrel time output and the values in the OBT table. Due primarily to differences in [Lot-to-Lot] powder burn rates with the program's preset burn rates, as well as ambient temperature, until you do the calibration step, you won't really know you are in relation to actual values. Many of the data points (curves) generated by QL will have essentially the same shape, but specific values will be shifted by some unknown distance right or left, depending on where your powder's burn rate and the ambient temperature are in relation to the factory presets in QL. The "calibration" step provides an internal frame of reference for your specific reloading components and setup.

All I can say is to give it a try and see how it comes out. Not everyone here has enjoyed success using it or are fans of the approach, but I favor it. Since you already have QL, it's a minor effort to simply see where your optimized load ends up with regard to OBT, regardless of the method used to develop that load. Even if you ultimately decide it isn't going to work out as an approach for you, if nothing else it is a good exercise. Good luck with your load development and feel free to ping me if you have further questions about the process.
 
I think that those who have poor results with OBT are not inputting to the QL program accurately.
If the velocity is not correct then nothing will work (as it should), interior or exterior ballistics.

The QL program and LabRadar go hand in hand in modeling and building loads that are spot on the the OBT.

Just an observation.
 
I think that those who have poor results with OBT are not inputting to the QL program accurately.
If the velocity is not correct then nothing will work (as it should), interior or exterior ballistics.

The QL program and LabRadar go hand in hand in modeling and building loads that are spot on the the OBT.

Just an observation.
You can adjust the input to have the BT dead on change lots of powder Different brand Or number and the BT changes or a differ barrel and it changes again . It's a great theory but that is all it is to me .
Barrel materials size shape all change the result on target . One thing you change the input And get a dead on number . Larry
 
You can adjust the input to have the BT dead on change lots of powder Different brand Or number and the BT changes or a differ barrel and it changes again . It's a great theory but that is all it is to me .
Barrel materials size shape all change the result on target . One thing you change the input And get a dead on number . Larry

Correct, any one parameter that is changed then the calculation must be run again.
Powder lot changes are easy (as are any other changes), Chronograph the velocity, adjust Ba to achieve actual velocity and your back in tune.
 
Correct, any one parameter that is changed then the calculation must be run again.
Powder lot changes are easy (as are any other changes), Chronograph the velocity, adjust Ba to achieve actual velocity and your back in tune.
No your program is in tune not you gun .
Larry
 
rifleman700, What was your ES / SD for each of these
Sorry Rifleman you must have missed what I said.
Now, if you talking ES on target (measuring es on farthest to farthest hole) that, I haven't measured yet but, there was a huge difference between the two loads on average as far as group size.
I need to buy another chrono so, I could not get any data from that standpoint
Can't really afford to spend the amount right now on a LabRadar so, I am open to suggestions. Not sure what brand offers the best bang fir your buck so too say.
Not to jump off topic but, any suggestions on this for the budget friendly?
 
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Sorry Rifleman you must have missed what I said.
Now, if you talking ES on target (measuring es on farthest to farthest hole) that, I haven't measured yet but, there was a huge difference between the two loads on average as far as group size.

Can't really afford to spend the amount right now on a LabRadar so, I am open to suggestions. Not sure what brand offers the best bang fir your buck so too say.
Not to jump off topic but, any suggestions on this for the budget friendly?

I was just curious to what your velocities were.

I use Oehler 35 and 43 chronographs and have been very happy with them. The 43 does not get used much anymore except when testing a wildcat cartridge.
 

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