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Question: Is F/TR becoming too specialized?

In another thread there was mention of competitors using two rifles so a competitor would have one rig specifically for shorter ranges and another designed for heavy bullets and 1000 yds. Does anyone else find this a curious development?

I thought F/TR was created to offer a simpler, purer alternative to the arms races in open class where there is always a fancier rest, cartridge, scope, etc. to give competitors a new edge. I thought the F/TR rules intended that competitors would take rifles ready for field use, limited to the basic 223 and 308 and let them compete without all the "competition specific" add-ons you see in other classes. But already I see fancy competition specific bipods. I see 30" heavy barrels which would make the rifle awkward to carry and maneuver afield. Now competitors are using two rifles! I guess it is human nature to always look for an edge, but it sure is a shame to see F/TR turn into a specialty class. Yes, a basic varmint rifle with 24" barrel and Harris bipod can participate, but at a serious disadvantage to a guy with two 30" barreled rifles and benchrest style bipod.

This reminds me how IDPA was created beause of the constant "improvements" to USPSA/IPSC pistols. If IDPA started to allow red dot sights, speed holsters or target specific barrel lengths, all would be lost.

So, do you think F/TR should allow any length barrel?

How about fancy competition specific bipods that stretch really wide for improved stability?

How about multiple rifles, each optimized for a specific bullet chosen for that distance?
 
Looking at the .308 F/TR rifles at the 2011 Eastern Canadian Championships and Ontario Championships this past Summer, they are increasingly custom built - 30 inch TruFlite or Kreiger barrels, Barnard actions, Panda actions, Robertson composite stocks is becoming typical.

The recently popular .308 Savage M12 Target rifles are disappearing as are the old 32 inch Palma rifles that a lot of guys started with.

Ontario had a special Factory F Class that was lumped in with F/TR, no matter what the caliber. Stock, out of the box rifles had to be used basically to encourage guys to come out with their varmint rifles and get involved in F Class. This year the ORA Executive wised-up to the fact that the Savage M12 Target rifles in 6BR or 6.5-284 had no business being in F/TR and placed them in F(O).

Even then a custom .308 F/TR beat all of the F(O) in the Lt. Govener`s Final at the Ontario Championships last weekend.

As far as I can see, the only difference now between F(O) and F/TR is the caliber. The use of a wide bipod instead of a pedestal and the lighter weight limit does not seem to be much of a handicap for F/TR.

Does this mean F/TR has evolved out of its original intent? I would suspect that the universal adoption of the 1/2 minute inner ring is one of the driving factors towards specialized F/TR rifles.

Bill
 
I have been shootinf F/TR since it started. And yes it has evolved to the point where i believe you need a custom gun to win. Just like any other game people play to win. Who want to drive for hours and spend money on a room 4 to 5 days away from home and not have a chance to win. Not saying you cant win with a factory gun but the odds are against it.
 
A new classification for f-class? "Claimer" class? Like in horse or car racing.

Before any match, anybody can buy anybody else's rifle for a predetermined fee.

What ever the fee is, if you're in that match, you're unlikely to bring a rifle worth half the fee.

If somebody shows up with an obvious ringer, they'll lose it.

What if the fee was $3000? How about $2000? That'd put a different spin on things.

Realistic? Certainly not, but an interesting thing to think about.

-nosualc
 
I guess I can't be 100% sure what the full intent of F/TR was, originally. But if not as a basic one man, one field duty rifle competition, then why create a class restricted to 223/308 with bipod?

I thought it was a competition to entice new shooters to the F-class game and at the same time settle the question: "who is the best long range marksman at known distances with your standard tactical/sniper/varmint rifle?" Standard field bipod. Avoid all the competition specific do-dads that make rifles expensive, heavy and impractical.
 
BlueRidge,

my mention in the other thread about two rifles wasn't about people using them at different distances, rather different weather conditions at the same (very long) distances and referred only to national level competition (GB F Class Association league championship rounds).

With the exception of one 'short-range (500/600yd) round, all are shot with at least half the matches at 1,000yd and nothing at less than 800yd. Of them, two (at Blair Atholl in Scotland) have five matches each at 1,000 only; one at Bisley each July has three 1,000yd matches and one each at 1,100 and 1,200yd. With venues running from Bisley in the south of England, Diggle in the North, and Blair in Scotland and all rounds bar one two-day, the remaining one three-day, some with a practice day too, they involve substantial travel and accommodation costs for most entrants, especially as we are now seeing mainland European nationals from as far away as The Ukraine and Russia now enter, the Spanish becoming very keen.

You can shoot a 24-26" barrel factory rifle at these distances at half-MOA ring targets - it's a dispiriting experience as I know to my cost having done it for a season, especially if the weather is bad - I won't forget shooting 5 x 1,000yd matches into a headwind and rain squalls at Blair Atholl with an FN Special Police Rifle in a hurry. You know things are bad when you 'convert' sighters scoring 2 because you also know you're going to get no-score hits or complete misses.

LESLEY said:
I have been shootinf F/TR since it started. And yes it has evolved to the point where i believe you need a custom gun to win. Just like any other game people play to win. Who want to drive for hours and spend money on a room 4 to 5 days away from home and not have a chance to win. Not saying you cant win with a factory gun but the odds are against it.

As LESLEY says, it's frankly not worth going to the trouble and expense of traveling away if you have trouble hitting the targets. F Class and F/TR are precision sports, the pinnacle of prone shooting (no disrespect to Fullbore / Palma / Service Rifle competitors), the only traditional discipline that matches it being Match Rifle (.308 Win at 1,000 - 1,500yd with specialised rifles).

BlueRidge,

I explained the background to and history of F/TR in the other post. While it may be a 'starter' discipline at short ranges in club competitions, it definitely is NOT at higher levels. It's a full-blown specialist international rifle discipline and the people who shoot F/TR at regional / national / international level take it as seriously as those who shoot Fullbore Rifle (Target Rifle in the UK and GB Commonwealth), Palma Rifle etc and expect to put as much time, commitment and expense into it as those disciplines - more in many cases as all F Class disciplines are handloaders' sports and they encourage experimentation in barrel rifling twist rates, bullet weights and forms etc.

Laurie,
York, England
 
Laurie,

I understand that F/TR is a serious game and that some spend lots of money on travel and expenses to go to matches. Not discounting any of those points, why couldn't FT/R be limited to a close facsimile of a long range field rifle. I don't mean factory original, but a rifle like police and military marksmen use. No specific competition accoutrements sticking out at odd angles. Rifles that are customized with the best components and throated for specific bullets, but still practical in size and nature.

With the advancements in bullet and rifle design, a shooting class like this would likely help really push the envelope of what a practical rifle can do at long distances. I know it can be done with a Harris bipod and 26" barrel, as Brad Sauve and others have proved by winning FT/R matches in years past. I just hate to see those examples pushed out of the game in favor of rifles that much more closely resemble their Open class cousins. There is still plenty of money to be spent on high quality bullets, glass, barrels, stocks, triggers etc. Why not keep the FT/R rifles within the realm of reality and practical use? Somehow, it seems to me that F-class would be much better served to keep FT/R a more unique and separate class from the Open class. Just my 2 cents.
 
ryanjay11 said:
I personally think the rules are fine as-is. The same people will win no matter what the rules are. Those who put the time in to build a rifle that conforms to the rules and take the time to practice with it will be in a much better position than those who spend time saying "what if" and "that's not fair". It is the way life is and that applies to all sports and pursuits. Those who put the time and effort in are the ones who succeed. The rifles that appear to be more practical are very subjective. If you painted a Palma rifle Olive Drab, it would look like a tactical rifle to me.

This has nothing to do with fairness. I'm not saying the rules are not fair. I am asking, was this the intended purpose of having a separate class limited to 223 and 308? Does it make sense to have a class limited to two every day military cartridges and specify no shooting from benchrest. But then allow 30" barrels, and benchrest style bipods? There will be stiff competition either way and it will all be fair. It is a question of practicality and looking at the big picture of long range shooting sports.
 
Seems to me that the evolution of F-Class shooting may have surpassed the original intent. It might be time for a new subclass that includes only factory rifles, or minor variations thereof. "F" Class as a theme might simply be considered as an alternative to sling shooting, which may allow some shooters to participate with less than the full complement of gear required for Palma or other LR discipline; also it may allow some shooters to continue to participate after their eyes and physical ability weigh in.

I know that even in smallbore prone shooting, there are many senior shooters that might still be active if they could shoot with a scope and a rest (any reason why not allow that in parallel competition to those shooting iron sights and slinging it?). If they happen to be using a custom match rifle, then the class or subclass should reflect that. Then again, there are no divisions among sling shooters with regard to custom rifles vs. factory rifles. I think the idea of a Factory class might not be a bad idea, but then a custom barrel, trigger job or even high magnification scopes could argualbly (and Lord knows, there will be those that want to argue this ;)) be considered as upgrades that unlevel even the "factory" class...
 
I think you've just made an excellent argument for Sniper and Tactical Class rifles and disciplines - which already exist of course. What some of these guys want is a Tactical / F/TR class to let them compete at long ranges without losing out to 30" barrel rifles, and if there is enough real demand for this, fair enough.

One of the things you soon find out about .308 Win at very long ranges is that it is an excellent 800yd cartridge, starts to struggle a bit at 900 and unless conditions are ideal is in trouble at 1,000yd. Yes, I know that Target, Fullbore, Palma and Match Rifle have used .308W at 1,000, and in some cases beyond that, but that's why these rifles all use 30-32" barrels and have done so for a full half-century now. They also use 2-MOA Bull targets with rings going out beyond that in MOA steps. As soon as F Class (Open that is) got too good for this target size, and went onto the one-MOA Bull with half-MOA rings, it was inevitable that F/TR would have to make as big a ballistic jump just to be worth shooting it. The easiest way of killing the discipline is to make it too hard to get a decent score especially for the tyro shooter.

What constantly staggers me is how far F/TR standards have risen each and every season for the last few years. I can remember a GB league round at windy old Diggle in the English Pennine Hills in what must be only around 2007 or 2008 where even with 30" barrel rifles, F/TR people finished the last match (1,000yd) of the weekend in despair after running out of scope windage adjustment, having received multiple complete misses, not even sure where some shots had gone.

Bi-pods aside (and as a .223 Rem shooter I use a Versa-Pod tactical model not an 'F Class model', one reason I like the cartridge) the kit doesn't have to be that fancy. Russell Simmonds the reigning World F/TR Champion uses a Barnard 'S' action in a Choate Ultimate Sniper stock, one of the cheaper models to be had. Stuart Anselm (Osprey Rifles) the UK's Savage specialist is building very successful rifles on the savage PT action, some with factory savage stocks, others with good quality but by no means exotic laminate jobs.

What would you remove / restrict? Too many people look at the bi-pods alone and say the rifles are too complex, too expensive, too something ... but many are plain Jane rifles with a relatively exotic bit of aluminium stuck on front. While the Sinclair and Centershot models seem to have taken a strong hold in the USA, simpler and often home-made bi-pods are widely used here. While I never expect to see police and military sharpshooters using something like a Sinclair, I'd lay money that some F/TR bi-pod innovations will become standard on 'tactical' models in due course. We're already seeing tactical models now that are as expensive as out and out specialist F/TR items, much more expensive than the Spanish Fito models and Dolphin Gun Co. 'Trakker' model that both retail at around £165 here (about 200 USD).

http://www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=157

The latest tactical pods are using a U-shape frame with the leg pivots on either side of the rifle forend / barrel and set high to give greater stability. I was shown one recently by an avid McQueens and Tactical competitor that retails around £400 or £450 here, same price as the John Weill Centershot.

Even on scopes. While many of the F Class boys have moved onto 50 and 60 power March scopes and similar, the 8-32X Sightron and Nightforce NXS models are overwhelmingly used by top GB FCA F/TR competitors. One could restrict scope power in F/TR, say to 24X, but this would be an entirely artificial constraint and again when the aiming mark is the half-MOA V-Bull could detract severely from scores and the shooting pleasure for many under some conditions. Hunter BR suggests you would soon have specialist (expensive) F/TR scopes too that would still reward the wealthy competitor.

I think you're focussing too much on the .223 and .308 cartridge issue as
every day military cartridges
to use your phrase. It's a purely historical accident that sees F/TR linked to this pair going back to the transition from non-US Service Rifle to Target Rifle in the 1960s. Target shooting including the long-range deliberate fire stuff was regarded as an adjunct to military training from the late 19th / early 20th century in most countries using the nation's primary service cartridge. The US has kept this tradition going with its Service Rifle and use of developed M14s, then AR15s- but everywhere else the link started to weaken in 1967/8 when 7.62X51mm replaced .303 British, 6.5X55mm etc and the move was made to single-shot rifles away from true service rifles like the Number 4 Enfield. Our TR shooters had to use milspec 7.62 ammo for decades at anything above club level - and it stopped technical development of the discipline for nigh on 40 years as a result. When F Class started it was very much an adjunct or development of TR, but quickly moved on from that. However, it still made perfect sense to stick with the cartridges accepted in all international competition even though the military links had long since been broken everywhere except the USA that (sensibly in my view) has retained co-operation between civilian and military shooters. Officially, we've long had it made clear to us in the UK that the military obtains NO benefit from anything that we do and that we're a sport like any other - in fact not like any other as we use these nasty gun things! (Funny how the British forces have discovered that their riflecraft is lacking in open country asymmetric warfare!)

Yes, .223 and .308 are used by the police and military, as they are also used in Fullbore / target and Palma Rifle. Nobody has said, not at least for a long time, that these disciplines should use rifles that look like police tactical or military sniper rifles, or conform to their specs in any way. Like these three disciplines, F/TR is a specialist long-range single-shot rifle one at targets at known distances. I and most competitors see it as a highly developed and more technical version of Target Rifle using scoped and supported rifles. if I want to use a military or police type rifle, I'd shoot Service, Tactical, or Sniper Rifle instead.
 
I agree that no matter what the rules are, people will always try to find a better mouse trap. But look at IDPA, their intention is to provide a competition that is first and foremost a place for people to get better with their real world, every day carry pistols, using their everyday carry holsters. As such, anyone with a Sig, Glock, 1911 or revolver in their night stand can show up and compete.

Now with long range shooting, there is no such thing as an every day carry gun. Most people don't shoot past 300 yards and most hunting rifles aren't intended to shoot beyond 300. However, IF F-T/R or a new tactical class wanted to keep things in a practical realm, it could be done. It really is a matter of intentions.

I guess tactical competitions are really the place for real world long range shooting any more. It is just they are not all that common. I had hoped F-T/R would be the bridge between the big money specialized competitions and the real world military/police/varmint shooters who could leave the shooting range and use the same rifle on duty, for varmint hunting or on tactical shoots.

Laurie, regarding bipod restrictions, I would limit them to their originally intended purpose. Those wide target bipods wouldn't be too portable. So limit the two legs to be no more than x inches apart when deployed. I think the weight limit of 18lbs is a little impractical also. Somewhere south of 15lbs would keep rifles portable.

Service rifle competitions are iron sight only, which again, has little practical use in the real world. Anyone shooting at long range on duty or for sport uses high power optics. Just would like to see a competition that tries to include these types of rifles and encourage a more real world type of competition. Not knocking FT/R at all. It is a great game. Just wondered if anyone else had ever scratched their head and thought, wasn't F-T/R supposed to be somewhat practical? I guess the answer I'm hearing, is "No".
 
Laurie,
As always your posts are right on. I have coached new shooters into the sport of F-class for 5 years now. I continue to correct the un-informed that F-TR is not "Tactical Rifle", but is in fact "Target Rifle". I know F-class started in Canada years ago with some sling shooters wishing to use optics and a rest as they no longer could compete in the usual target disciplines of the day, but these shooters still enjoyed shooting.

Over the past years, I have helped over 100 shooters try F-class. Some stuck with it, and are very competitive in the sport, both Open and F-TR classes. Others just enjoy shooting at longer distances for the challenge and to hone their rifle skills without ever having any desire to compete with anyone but themselves. Too each his own. No one with a safe rifle suitable for the distance involved is ever turned away. We all start somewhere, but why lament those who want to make their equipment as accurate as possible?
Scott
 
Oh,
One more thing. I created and ran a F-class program for 5 years. I purposely sought out new shooters to introduce them to the sport, as F-class is an inexpensive way to get started into competitive rifle shooting.

When guys show up with synthetic grass taped to the barrel, spray painted scopes,and have all the latest tactical gear and clothing, they scare the hell out of me. More than 80% of the time, they have no idea what their zero is, what their rifle can do, and they usually can't hit the broad side of a barn, even at 300 yards. They read all the sniper magazines, watch the movies, and think by purchasing the gear, they have joined the club. Every one of these guys will shoot for a week or two, and then leave, most likely to tell stories of their shooting adventures to others at gun shows and cocktail parties.

I have the utmost respect for our snipers, both military and police. I am President of the range they use for training all the time. They are all excellent marksman and take their shooting seriously.

Keep Highpower Rifle and F-class disciplines as they were intended, as target shooting sports at known distances. There are already tactical/sniper matches all over the country to participate in. But is you wish to shoot your tactical/sniper rifle in F-class, great. Just don't complain about the uneven playing field. And if you beat me, I will be the first to shake your hand and congratulate you on your shooting skills.
Scott
 
"Real" world tactical shooting would have to include inclines and be fired from unknown distances (though I would bet 100% of tactical pros are using laser range finders).

That really makes fixed distance rifle ranges only useful for specialists using the best that technology can deliver and regardless of price.

+1 to Laurie, that this whole premise is a mandate for a sniper class, and I see no reason why not to have one, though anyone using an as-issued M24 sniper rifle might find themselves over the weight restrictions!
 
Okay, so just clear one thing up for me. What is the purpose of having a class that restricts use to 223/308 and bipod? Why not any cartridge? Why not any rest?
 
I suppose those are reasonable future evolutions in the program. If enough shooters ask for it, it may just happen. I think there will always have to be some weight restrictions, or else some kind of unlimited class as they have in benchrest.
 
BlueRidge said:
Okay, so just clear one thing up for me. What is the purpose of having a class that restricts use to 223/308 and bipod? Why not any cartridge? Why not any rest?

That is called F-Open. I attached an F-Class rule set. A bipod is not required in F-T/R. You could shoot sling if you are more comfortable with it. Sling weight must be included.

F-T/R and F-Open are what they are. They are variations of High Power shooting and not intended for any other purpose. Plenty of tactical matches exist for unknown distance, practical shooting. Both disciplines are good. Anything that safely burns powder can be fun and educational. Enjoy F-Class for what it is.
 

Attachments

Scott,

good post!

I started my 'fullbore shooting' with historic military stuff a long, long time ago, then got caught by UK Target Rifle and happily shot that alongside my Mausers and Enfields at 200-600yd off my elbows in club matches for many years. Then two things happened - one, I got on the wrong side of the big Five-Oh and scoped rifles seemed more practical than shooting irons after I started seeing two rearsight assemblies one sitting above the other, and couldn't keep the foresight blade or ring in focus. Shooting scoped rifles soon got the precision bug biting and me on a slippery slope. Then - two, I had a go at longer ranges and was really hooked on precision Plus 1,000yd. I still enjoy shooting a 300 or 500yd club F Class match as much as the next shooter, but 800 and up is the icing on the cake! And a frustrating business it is too - every good shoot and placing seems to have an matching bad one at times!

This is why F Class and F/TR are so attractive to me. and I suspect most competitors in it. As another poster has said it's big boys' toys time too and part of the appeal is looking at, discussing, criticising, envying the latest gizzmos, searching for the 'wunder-bullet' or powder, planning next season's rifle build. Let's not ever make the two F Classes boring and start putting restrictions on. From what I see on this forum the discipline is doing very well for itself in the USA. Over here in the UK, we're turning entries down for some league rounds due to lack of room. The annual long-range meeting at Bisley (1,000, 1,100 and 1,200yd stages) held over the first weekend of July had 72 entrants compared to barely 20 only a few years ago. The Diggle rounds are limited to 60 competitors by the number of targets and the three meetings held there each season are all capacity entries a week or two after the entry forms are emailed out with some people left disappointed - and we know that gunsmiths like Stuart Anselm (Osprey Rifles for Savage and Barnard based models) and others are still getting orders for new rifles on a weekly basis many from new entrants. It's roughly 50/50 F Class and F/TR here now at national league level, overwhelmingly F/TR in club competition. While F Class is still growing, F/TR is moving on much faster. We must be doing something right!
 

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