Question about pistols and lights

[Cold Bore]

OK, I know this is a precision rifle shooting forum. I also know there are a lot of pistol shooters mixed in to the crowd.

An interesting topic came up last night at the range, and thought I'd toss it out here for some input.

For those that shoot pistols with added lights or lasers (attached via frame rail), which is better, and why?

Not looking for "Brand X light/laser is better than Brand Y light/laser", but more of... between a light (to illuminate) or a laser (to put a red aiming dot on something), which would you choose, and why?

For this scenario, we are talking a full-sized self-defense handgun, to be used mainly in the home (neither lights nor lasers, not counting integral in-the-grip type stuff, are completely concealed holster friendly).

The arguments were good on both sides at the range, it will be interesting to see what is said here.

 

[msinc]

I have a Kimber TLE-RLII stainless 45. It has a rail and I use the Surefire X200A. I am sure this light is outdated by now. The "A" is the one with the concentrated spot light, not the diffused one. I can shoot accurately in the dark with this setup because it only lights up bright a smaller spot {depends on distance.} It has the advantage of being so bright as to temporarily blind someone looking at it. Flash yourself in the mirror with this light even in daylight and you will understand. It is rugged, dependable and snaps on and off in a second. About the only drawbacks are the price and the fact that it eats batteries if you try to use it as a flashlight. It is for shooting or using to clear a room. I also like the switches, instant on/off with a spring loaded button or switch on full time. Somebody even makes a holster for the 1911 with this light.
Given the advances in LED lights these days there are probably ones now that are brighter and batteries last longer, but I like this one...I think the newer X300 model has spot and diffused light switches, but to me that is just something else to worry about at a time when you have way bigger worries.

 

[Pappy42]

The light will allow you to identify friend or foe in darkness; the lazer will not.

Both will divulge your exact position and can be bullet magnets. I retired after 25 years in law enforcement in 1995, so my experience is dated. That said; I still use the brightest, heavy flashlight that also can be used in a close tussle as a club. It can be used with a temporary on/off switch, and held away from your body in case you draw fire or other attack?

When I walk my dog in snake or alligator infested area at night; I use a weapon mounted light.

 

[dickn52]

Neither. As an also retired LEO, I never liked giving away my position. Meprolight sights was the only illumination I ever wanted in a dark room. Even those can be too much sometimes. I trained with a bunch of crazy wackadoodles from Israel once. They believe that if you go into a dark place, everything in front of you is bad and you can only count on those behind you to have your back.

 

[Mr.Spradlin]

I personally dont like either as well. But just a little advice. Next time you see someone shooting with a laser watch them. They tend to fight the laser over letting the laser help. They will tend to pull a lot of shots down by jerking the trigger when the laser is on target.

 

[msinc]

"Neither"....???????

Don't they both have a switch???? No one is saying walk around with the light on while a possible intruder is about. Only a moron would stand there with a light on while being shot at.

 

[Changeling]

Interesting post! I gave this a lot of attention a long time ago, this is what I setup for myself : I keep a 7 " Streamlight LED flashlight and my Browning Hi-Power in my bedroom very close. I do not use any light on it (pistol) on purpose, not needed for in house ranges whatsoever, and I do not want to be seen !
If anyone thinks for a split second I can't hit you in the dark from 10 feet you're well come to break in at your own risk .

Side note: When a burglar/intruder in or outside a home hears a very local firearm discharge, he is no longer going to confront you, he transforms himself into a track star competing for the two minute mile !

PS. I'm against semi auto type pistols for 80 % of homeowners as a defence weapon.

 

[snert]

17 years teaching LEO handgun/carbine/shotgun. 10 of those were "with firearm mounted lights".
Let's start with the obvious: You have to know what you are shooting and seeing it is the most reliable means of discerning that. So, if you can't tell fer sure, you should not be shooting it. So a light has a final point in the argument...when you need it and don't have it, well, you might as well have a butter knife.

Much can be said for the problem of letting the bad-guy know where you are by using a light. I refer back to point 1, and from there it is a math problem...a matter of odds and training.

Now whether a light on a gun is better than one in your off hand...debatable fer sure. But no light vs a light...not debatable.

Downside of carrying a light on a gun, alone. To see the threat or the suspected threat, you have to point the gun at the "suspicious object". In the case of a snake, no issue. Neither the snake nor the garden hose will care, nor should you. In the case of a six-year old holding a sno-cone hiding in the dark...well...not so good. It is certainly easier to make hits with a mounted light on a handgun than when manipulating a flashlight too. I have years of statistical evidence that supports that. What is not evident in the numbers is how to measure variables such as seeing "outside the cone of light", drawing return fire, etc. Again debatable areas. For me, mandatory to have a handgun, a hand-held quality focus beam light with high illumination, and then maybe a gun light.

In the matter of lasers, frankly i find very little use for them on a handgun, except in training with a FATS or computer assisted system to track draw, sight alignment, trigger dwell, etc. Hard to see in stress. Harder to tell if it is yours or partners. Takes too dang long to figure out.

Now, a good set of tritium night sights or a heads-up optik, like offered on the newer Glocks and you have a fine means of aiming, and yes, I advocate both point shooting and sighted shooting. I was amazed at the improvement of shooting in low light when tritium came out. Scores in the dark improved over daylight shooting among many of my trainees...likely they were actually seeing the sights.. and using them. This before lights on guns.

Personally, if I opt for a gun/light I want stupid simple... A BIG switch/toggle, a "steady on" and a Non-steady on feature that I can flick on and release to off automatically, no stupid strobes of gimmicks. Forget the laser. I want it to fit a good retention holster cleanly without rattle or sloppiness. And I want to train with it a lot because flipping a safety, squeezing a trigger under stress is a lot like turning on a light. Easy to confuse under stress. Really.

 

[Cold Bore]

I'm liking the thought put into the responses so far!

As for the "no light" mentality, due to wanting to remain hidden...

I understand that in an offensive, or at least a moving and dynamic scenario, concealing your position and intentions is a good thing. For this thread though, I'm thinking more inside the house, and more narrowly, probably inside one bedroom.

As badazz as we might want to think we are, very few of us would be (or even should be) moving room to room, trying to clear a building. You are a civilian homeowner, not a military member or law enforcement called to the scene of a burglary. For the most part, you are going to be on the defensive, not the offensive. You don't really care about actually confronting and apprehending the bad guy, but you are quite firm in your desire to not be killed if they come upon you, and that means firing your weapon if need be. Nobody is going to be sneaking tactically behind the couch, trying to get a good vantage point set up behind the dining room table as your FFP.

Besides, in most houses, there will be light spillage of some sort, be it a night light, glow from the clock radio alarm clock, a nearby street light or the dusk-to-dawn on the barn. There's going to be enough light for them to see you, or at least your form and movement, so the concept of remaining totally hidden is probably already lost.

With that, I would want something to positively friend versus foe.

 

[snert]

Ya, it would be bad to shoot old Uncle Elmer who kicked in "his" door after his key did not work to get into his "house" after a late night at the pub. Might want to grab him and loft him into the shrubs, but a good light helps make that decision.

 

[Outrider27]

I have remained pretty much old school - pistol in one hand, flashlight in the other, and when desired to combine the two use what, as I remember, was called The Harries maneuver or Harries technique. The only change over the years has been to substitute a modern, compact incredibly bright LED flashlight capable of delivering a blinding light for a 4 cell Maglite that doubled as a club. With either flashlight, the reasoning was that I would rather not be illuminating an unidentified target using my pistol as a handle for the light, and I liked the option of being able to hold the light off to the side to misdirect fire from bad guys if I thought the situation warranted it, and the on/off switch was there when I wanted to keep from revealing my own position. There are other approaches, but these have worked for me.

 

[Jammer Six]

Learn to use a light that isn't mounted on the weapon.

Don't shoot a target you can't see. Don't shoot a target that isn't illuminated.

Don't point a weapon at a cop, your wife or your child.

Therefore, don't mount a light on a weapon.

 

[dogdude]

I just bought a Glock and added Streamlight TLR-6 with a 100 lumen light/laser combo, switched on/off by index finger and have your off hand to do what ever else needs to be done (phone, outdoor light switch, door, RELOAD). With 100 lumens of light in the bad guys eyes they'll think it a flashlight..not a GLOCK!!

 

[Cold Bore]

I have remained pretty much old school - pistol in one hand, flashlight in the other, ....

....and I liked the option of being able to hold the light off to the side to misdirect fire from bad guys if I thought the situation warranted it,....

My issues with this are that I want two hands on my pistol, with the ability to take one off if really needed to do something else. Hard to do with a flashlight in your off-hand.

Also, for a lot of shooters, the "light-off-to-the-side" technique presents a few problems.

First, it is sometimes problematic to line up a light and a set of sights independently, on the same target. Your strong hand is held vertically on the pistol grip, while your weak hand is held horizontally on a flashlight. Some brains don't like this, and try to put both in the same orientation. This leads to either the light or the pistol moving off-target.

That example leads to the second issue. If the light moves, the sights want to follow it. Again, you are now off target, even if your sights are now centered in the illuminated area.

Third, I like to hold my handgun directly in front of me, and close in until needed. A forward press is much easier to do correctly (straight and bore axis staying aligned) with two hands. It is awkward to have a compact firing stance with one hand and a wide-to-the-side stance with the other.

While I semi-understand the mindset of holding the light away from your body, it doesn't offer enough advantages, and some disadvantages, to me so that option is a non-contender for me personally.

 

[Cold Bore]

Learn to use a light that isn't mounted on the weapon.

Don't shoot a target you can't see. Don't shoot a target that isn't illuminated.

Don't point a weapon at a cop, your wife or your child.

Therefore, don't mount a light on a weapon.

So, in a self-defense situation, inside a typical bedroom, you think you have enough time to switch on a light, identify your target, make the shoot/don't shoot decision, and then bring your weapon to bear?

While everybody's situation is different, in my personal situation, there are two people in the house, and no kids. If a cop is in my bedroom, in the middle of the night, he is wrong. My wife is beside me, and easy to verify as I'm grabbing my pistol. There are no kids. Nobody else has a reason to be there, and will be treated as suspicious and potentially harmful.

There is a reason that I intentionally tried to narrow down the scenario in prior posts. I didn't want a hundred different "But what if?" scenarios.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If a cop walks into your bedroom and you didnt know it was a cop 2 mins before that he needs to be shot

 

[Jammer Six]

Equipment is not a substitute for training, skill, experience or knowledge.

Fishing lure are not made to catch fish. They're made to catch fishermen.

Make sure your raillight says "Tactical" on it. The standard lights won't do, particularly when the target is undead.

 

[snert]

hey Dusty,...that brought back a memory! I once got called to a house by two teen girls who were "certain" someone had broken in, was in the house. Partner and I got them away from the house, learned that "dad" was asleep upstairs. We announced, LOUDLY, at every doorway as we cleared the basement, first floor. we made our way upstairs shouting "POLICE" and directed "dad" to stay in his room, wait till we were certain house was clear. We cleared every room. Then we VERY LOUDLY shouted to dad in his room it was safe to come out. No movement. Again, repeat, again repeat. Finally we had to open the door, now wondering if a bad guy was in there. Dad was asleep in bed, snoring like a chainsaw.
We left and my partner said "Geez, i wish my girlfriends dad slept that hard!"

 

[ballistic64]

With no kids in the house, I would lean towards having a tactical shotgun at the ready and let the wife become proficient with the handgun.JMO

 

[Cold Bore]

Equipment is not a substitute for training, skill, experience or knowledge.

Fishing lure are not made to catch fish. They're made to catch fishermen.

Make sure your raillight says "Tactical" on it. The standard lights won't do, particularly when the target is undead.

I guess when you have nothing else left, this is what somebody resorts to.

I tried to send you a PM, but you apparently don't allow them.