Question about Copper fouling

[Savage6br]

Per the information on this site and others, I had a PAC NOR barrel made for my Savage Model 12. Specs are as follows: 8 twist,3 groove, 28" SS Super Match. I went out and shot it today. I followed the break-in instructions included with the barrel. My initial load was a 95GR Nosler BT in front of 29.5 GR of Varget and a CCI 450 primer.

I am getting a tremendous amount of copper at the end of the barrel. Every single shot I had a bunch of copper. I've not seen any mention of copper fouling with this length barrel on any of the forums. Is this length of barrel overkill for this cartridge? I thought I was doing what everyone else was doing. I did'nt want to shoot moly, but now I am thinking that maybe that might be the way to go. I've only put 20 rounds through it, maybe it will settle down after a while.

Any insight or comments would be appreciated.

 

[ReedG]

Well Savage6BR, I hope some of the wisdom-keepers on here have an answer for you. My thought would be that there is something wrong with the end of the barrel: tooling marks in the grooves, scratches on the lands, diameter too small. I have only had 6BR's with 21-22" barrels and all the copper fouling was mostly in the first few inches of the barrel. Never seen anything like what you have described. I would call Pac-Nor and talk to them.

Good luck ...

 

[Forum Boss]

Savage 6BR,

We have a 27" 3-groove super match Pac-Nor on a 10FP action. No problems similar to what you observed. The gun pretty much stopped fouling after 16 rounds or so. Are you using a copper or bronze brush? Is the copper jag partly exposed under the patch.

Suggest you try using Wipe-Out a few times,give it a good 4-5 hour soak) and tell us the results. All I can think is maybe the lapping was not finished up as well near the end of the barrel.

One thing we did note about our Pac-Nor--the bore is real tight. We have to use a 22-caliber jag and thin patches with that.

 

[jb1000br]

Dont know if this is the problem, but that bullet has a LOOOOOONG bearing surface = more friction = more fouling.

JB

 

[Savage6br]

I am soaking with wipeout right now. I have not used a brush as of yet. I am just real leary about using a brushing my first custom barrel. Wipeout worked real good in my factory barrels. I just would'nt expect this out of this barrel. I may give Chris a call and see if he has any suggestions.

 

[Savage6br]

Dont know if this is the problem, but that bullet has a LOOOOOONG bearing surface = more friction = more fouling.

Yeah that was suggested to me by a shooting buddy. He said things might be stacked against me with the length of the barrel and the bullet that I am shooting.

 

[jb1000br]

Barrel length IS NOT the problem, 28"+ is the norm for LR BR rigs.

Dont sweat the barrel length!!

JB

 

[Changeling]

First off, barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with copper fouling unless:
You exceeded the length of the barrel to be used by the maker!!

If you did not do this, and it has a proper/correct crown, then it is a bad barrel. You can soak or do anything you want but if it is as bad as you say, you should have already been on the phone with Pacnor, it will never be correct! Send it back!
Guys on this forum can say what they want about correcting the fouling, but, it won't make that barrel a winner!
However keep in mind that "Every" barrel maker has a bad one slip through now and then, you were the unlucky one! Call them and act like a rational person instead of some nut and explain the situation without blowing up. They have a decent reputation and want to protect it, work with them.
Changeling

 

[Savage6br]

The barrel is a prefit "no-nut". They did the crown, chamber and threads. All I did was headspace it at work. I've only got 20 rounds through it. Should I shoot it some more and see if it gets better? Or should I just call PacNor? Trust me I would treat PACNOR with the utmost respect. I am definatly no expert. Afterall I would be seeking their advice and help on the matter.

 

[Changeling]

Savage6Br, yes shooting it will make it better! After about 2 or 3000 rounds you probably won't have to soak it more than over night. Accuracy will probably be acceptable for this type of "condition", anywhere from a inch to 4 inches at 100 yards hard to tell, you never know. I wouldn't try to shoot at a club out at 300 yards and up because you can't be sure where the bullets are going and you wouldn't want to hurt the personnel that are tending the targets. If this type of condition is "OK" with you, hang in there!! If you want to get it fixed, due what I suggested.
I am sorry for being so blunt, but if you stop and think for 10 minutes you will understand ! There is no fairy dust or magic potion, the barrel is a piece of crap, correct it, send it back. Please heed what I said about PAC-Nor! If it had been from "any" of the Major barrel makers I would have told you the same thing.
Changeling

 

[mikecr]

Changeling may be right.
If it turns out that your stuck with it though, Tubbs FinalFinish will fix it. I've saved several factory barrels with it, and they shot great afterwards.

 

[Savage6br]

Thank you all for the advice. I have contacted Chris at Pac-Nor and am waiting on his reply. I am just a little bummed out about the whole deal. I am in manufacturing myself, and know that there can be a bad apple in the bunch. I worked and saved for this project for about 6 months and it's just disheartning. I know Pac Nor has a
good rep and they will make it right. It's just going to suck to have wait another 5-6 weeks for another barrel when shooting season is upon us.

I will keep you posted...

 

[Forum Boss]

I think changeling is jumping to conclusions. There could be a lot of reason for the fouling, some of which are pretty innocent. The barrel may just need a little more lapping or a little more aggressive break-in.

From an accuracy standpoint it's better to have a barrel that is a little tight at the muzzle than one which is belled.

After you did the Wipe-Out soak, did you see copper residue on the patches. Was there still visible copper in the bore?

My advice would be to put another 50 rounds through the gun before you send anything back. And maybe short-stroke 1 or 2 JB patches through the last third of the barrel--but I'd shoot some more rounds before even doing that.

 

[Savage6br]

After soaking with wipeout overnite, I did get a little blue on the patch. Not like out at the range. The bore looks awesome inside now. I am going to try and shoot it again on sunday after I shoot in a local Varmint Sillouette match. My buddy said the same thing. That I should shoot it some more to see what happens. I do have some JB's that I could try like you said.
Also the Tubb's Final finish looks feasible enough too. Fairly inexpensive to try.

 

[SnakeEye]

Savage,
After you clean with the Wipe out, coat a cleaning patch with JB bore cleaner and short stroke it back and forth until you get to the muzzel, then drop the patch. Flush with Butches or Montana Extreme, leave wet. Short stroke another patch of JB again. Flush again with 3 wet patchs. Run 2 dry patches thru. Run a wet patch thru with either bore cleaner or Sweets. Let it soak for about 15 min. Run another wet pacth thru again. If it shows blue, repeat the process again. That should clean it. I always clean with JB, no brushes. When you get a clean patch short stoke a patch of ISSO paste thru the bore. That will clean and polish it. Try this and let us know how it does.
P.S. Please use a bore guide..

SnakeEye
Varmints For Fun

 

[Forum Boss]

Had one other thought. If you're Pac-Nor barrel is like mine, the bore is probably pretty tight. It could be you were squeezing out most of the solvent off those patches you were using during break-in, so solvent wasn't getting to the end of the barrel. What you can do is use an eyedropper or a small squeeze bottle and apply solvent right into the barrel from the muzzle end.

When I clean I go after carbon first and usually just squirt MPro7 or GM Top Engine cleaner right down the bore. Then I follow with wet patches.

 

[Changeling]

Savage6BR, This will be my last try!
Stop and think what you are being told!!
You just put a brand new barrel from a Major maker on your rifle, spending your dollars.
You said the copper fouling was bad enough to start a soaking process, that will "NOT" fix the problem.
Now you have people telling you to try "cutting compounds" on the bore of your new barrel and try to short stroke or position the "STEEL" removal from the bad areas! Do you really think you can do this and not affect other parts of the barrel you paid top dollar for? If it was a $20.00 take off factory barrel, I would say it's worth a try. Will it work like the barrel you paid for done right, NO! QUALITY barrels are lapped by the manufacture by people who know what they are doing. Even then, there is just so much lapping that can be done before ruining a barrel!
Now, see how many guys want to buy your barrel for what you paid for it. They won't have to wait weeks and weeks for a barrel that they absolutely think they know how to fix because they are privy to experience that the barrel maker doesn't know or understand, YEAH RIGHT!

By the way, PAC-Nor won't make you wait weeks to build you a new barrel,Not fix this one). Because Of manufacture defects you should go to the head of the line. Let me know.
Changeling

 

[Savage6br]

Here is the reply I got from Pac-Nor.

Ohio weather permitting I will go shoot it again tomorrow.

"Dear Eric,

What you are seeing is fairly common for a new barrel. The copper fouling
will slow way down within 20-30 rnds, but don't be afraid to use a good
copper solvent like CR-10. The one concern is that you have a build up of
carbon fouling in the throat, this will cause very bad copper fouling. If
you have any doubts
I would say to use a mild abrasive like Hollands Witches Brew, this will
clean everything out of the barrel in under 10 minutes. Please call with
any Questions

Thanks
Casey Dichter"

 

[Changeling]

Savage6BR, I assumed you were not new to shooting because of the level of equipment. When you posted the following:

"I am getting a tremendous amount of copper at the end of the barrel. Every single shot I had a bunch of copper. I've not seen any mention of copper fouling with this length barrel on any of the forums. Is this length of barrel overkill for this cartridge? I thought I was doing what everyone else was doing. I didn't want to shoot moly, but now I am thinking that maybe that might be the way to go. I've only put 20 rounds through it, maybe it will settle down after a while."

If the above first sentence is true, I stand correctly behind what I said! "A tremendous amount of "COPPER" at the end of the barrel"....."EVERY SINGLE shot I had a bunch of copper".
PACNOR's reply was that "basically" initial firing will show copper, that is very true to a point, in a custom barrel!
Good Luck, Changeling.

 

[Savage6br]

New update.

I went and shot it again yesterday. I now have 80 rds total through it. I think it will be a keeper. The barrel seems to be cleaning easier and easier. The more shots I put through it, the better it seems to get. Shot some pretty nice groups too. I shot 3-5 shot groups that were .403, .367, and .342 . It's the most accurate rifle I've owned. I have more load development to do though.

Now I just need to get the inletting done on my new Model 008 Stock
from Richard Franklin that I just received on Friday.

Thanks for everybody's input.