Quenching brass after annealing?

[Tommie]

I’ve seen statements that the quenching process is old-school and unnecessary. What are the facts?

 

[DiffEQ]

Makes no difference. I drop mine into a 5 gallon bucket rather than onto a hard surface. Gives them a "soft" landing.

Read this for more info:

The Science of Cartridge Brass Annealing

Want to know how annealing brass works? We examine the science here.

bisonballistics.com

 

[jr600yd]

I drop my brass on a damp towel. Dropping in water just gives you wet brass.

 

[RegionRat]

It makes no metallurgical difference is the point. While the water cools the brass without a doubt, it has nothing to do with the grain size of the brass or what we are trying to accomplish with annealing.

In the example of steel, when we raise the temperature to get the phase change to austinite, that is a “soft state”. When we then rapidly quench, we are attempting to get the grains into a fine small state for example a martensite, which is a “hard state”. This is all based on the crystal lattice and phase behavior of steels and how the size of the grains and lattice are affected by their chemistry and cooling rate..

The idea of getting brass annealed is very different in that we are not trying to harden it or get the grains to change into a “hard state” either. So for both reasons; 1) that brass crystal lattice and phase behavior is very different than steel, and 2) we are not trying to harden but to relieve the work hardening or “soften” the brass.

So you can use water to help cool it off, but it won’t have anything to do with the hardness state.

 

[joshb]

No.

 

[Fast14riot]

I drop them onto a towel, then they go into a loading block. By the time I get the annealer put away they're back at ambient temp.

 

[Tokay444]

I salt bath anneal, and dropping into water works two fold for me. It alleviates crystalized salt buildup in the mouth and on the neck, and reduces heat migration down the case towards the head. By the time I’m pulling them, the heads are warm enough that I prefer from wear a thin pair of leather gloves instead of using my bare hands.

 

[TAJ45]

As a retired toolmaker, I could not agree more with RegionRat. He is right on.
AFA "heat migrating" to the head? A non event for metallurgical change. When the temp gets to the dangerous level at the base, the neck will be COOKED to a fair thee well.

 

[CA_Shooter]

It makes no metallurgical difference is the point. While the water cools the brass without a doubt, it has nothing to do with the grain size of the brass or what we are trying to accomplish with annealing.

In the example of steel, when we raise the temperature to get the phase change to austinite, that is a “soft state”. When we then rapidly quench, we are attempting to get the grains into a fine small state for example a martensite, which is a “hard state”. This is all based on the crystal lattice and phase behavior of steels and how the size of the grains and lattice are affected by their chemistry and cooling rate..

The idea of getting brass annealed is very different in that we are not trying to harden it or get the grains to change into a “hard state” either. So for both reasons; 1) that brass crystal lattice and phase behavior is very different than steel, and 2) we are not trying to harden but to relieve the work hardening or “soften” the brass.

So you can use water to help cool it off, but it won’t have anything to do with the hardness state.

Sounds like you know you're talking about.

Off topic, but on the annealing topic: Does salt bath annealing work as well as flames or induction? Assuming it gets the brass to f he right temperature

 

[Mikemci]

Sounds like you know you're talking about.

Off topic, but on the annealing topic: Does salt bath annealing work as well as flames or induction? Assuming it gets the brass to f he right temperature

No

 

[RegionRat]

@Tokay444 I do the same when salt bath annealing, since the heat and water help dissolve any salt residues that accidentally drag out with the brass. But that said, the water is only cooling and washing, not specifically quenching as in material science.

@smoketheclay No. I run that salt bath pretty close to the hot limits and it helps me with old vintage military cartridges where I run in smaller batches like 303 Brit and 30-40 Krag, etc. It is not the equal of flame or induction in my opinion, but sometimes better can be the enemy of good enough. If I need the necks all the way back to baseline, I use the other methods, but for those cases I don't need them all the way back.

 

[Tokay444]

Agreed. It’s not a quench in the term used for heat treatment functions.

 

[Longtrain]

I use an old ballistic edge 200, a manual unit but it works very well with tempilaq indicating liquid. As you pull the case from the flame, it drops through a hole in the slide, then that flaming hot piece of brass bounces to who knows where. Of course some hit yours truly and caused a little annealers tap dance to avoid getting burned.
So, a small bucket of water for them to land in keeps me and my surroundings safe from the dancing brass. I run them briefly through my tumbler with pins to clean up the tempilaq residue, so the fact that they get wet is insignificant.

 

[skeeljc]

No. Water is not what you want inside your brass.

 

[Sniper338]

Just annealing PROPERLY.... then put into a pan to cool. I put annealed brass straight into my aluminum loading block to cool. Cools in a few min... then goes into the plastic ammo box, or whatever im doing next

 

[tctex]

As most of you probably have, I have read many threads on the quenching topic & have come to the opinion that quenching is very much like the story of the young bride who asked her mother why she always cut the ends off the roast before cooking it & was told "That's the way grandma did it." When grandma was asked about it she said "So it would fit in my pan." Sometimes we do things because that's the way we've always done it when there was a valid reason for it at the time that may or may not be valid anymore. Everything I have read from credentialed metallurgists say it serves no metallurgical purpose. It does allow the brass to be handled sooner but it is wet which probably is not a big issue if you're going to size it after annealing but if you're going to go straight to loading it needs to be dried - six of one & half a dozen of the other in my opinion.

 

[Webster]

I’ve seen statements that the quenching process is old-school and unnecessary. What are the facts?

This subject has been covered a 100 times.

 

[SmokinJoe]

I shoot some very short, small cases and was told that I should consider water quenching to eliminate heat migration to the head. I use a Bench Source annealer and haven't actually found a need to do this so far but can see it as a possibility when annealing really small cases depending on how you do it.

 

[Chiquita]

This subject has been covered a 100 times.

Yes it has been. I don't know about the poster, but we have new shooters that are new to reloading and/or to the sport.

It would be like the 1st grade teacher saying: "Well I covered that math problem many times and many years ago, don't you know that 2+2 is 4?"

 

[Webster]

Yes it has been. I don't know about the poster, but we have new shooters that are new to reloading and/or to the sport.

It would be like the 1st grade teacher saying: "Well I covered that math problem many times and many years ago, don't you know that 2+2 is 4?"

Guys need to learn to use the search tool. It will bring up every post on the subject. It usually only takes a few minutes to find what you want if it's a subject that has a real answer and not personal opinions.