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Quality of a Savage target action

How does a trued and timed Savage target action compare to say a custom action. I know the tolerances are much tighter on a Bat or Stiller. I know the shooter is usually always the weak link but with all else being equal between the 2 (custom barrel and stock) is the tighter tolerances going to make a big difference on target? I can get a target action trued and timed for probably $400 cheaper than a custom one. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to bench rifles. Thanks for your input.
 
I know I'll catch a lot of heat for this but....

Accuracy wise? You'll never know. Yep, they're sloppy.
Properly T&T'd and headspaced correctly they'll handle the same competitive pressure loads a custom will.
Do your job at the loading bench and they can shoot right along with the big boys. Mine does anyway.
The major downfall is the trigger. Assuming your thinking of the EVO-2.
Its real nice for a Savage. Its not a Jewel. If you've never used a Jewel you won't know ;D
The other problem with the Evo is the need to butcher the rear pillar even more than Savage already has. I hate the idea. Would never have gone that route if I knew.
Has'nt seemed to effect accuracy though.
The Evo should only be installed with a stock using a full bedding block-JMO.

If your even slightly doubtful buy a full custom action. Doubt about your setup will just have you spending money later on.
Shilen is making a nice action now. Incorporates the strong points of both Savage and Remington into one unit. Should be a winner.
 
I have two Savage 12F rifles that have been bedded, trued, timed and SSS Evo triggers installed. They both shoot very well, I shoot one in F-TR competition to 1000 yards.

That said; they do not shoot like my 6BR Stiller Viper SS, Pierce tactical, Borden/Eliseo tube gun or 40XBRs. Much of that can be attributed to the barrels but there are limits to that explanation. The Viper shoots under .125 MOA and I don't think either Savage could ever get there regardless of barrel.

It really depends on what you will shoot. If it is High Power, F-TR or just varmint hunting, a properly configured Savage will likely do everything you need. If it is any form of registered benchrest or F-Open, it would probably not be competitive against custom rifles.
 
Savages are great, but i would not build anything but a custom action if you want high quality and high accuracy. Usually when you modify a factory action you reduce the value, so all the money to true and time is 100% completely lost, and you are truing and timing something thats has no room for error because of the loose tolerances to begin with. Some one posted a while back that they did this and then had the smaller factory scope threads for the scope mount strip out and spent alot of time and money figuring out what was going on. Id say to save money money and buy a custom, i wish i did.
 
Why fool with one when you can buy an Atlas for $700 and put a good trigger in it. No truing no timing,buying a Savage and add the t&t your right there with the Kelbly. You can get any stock ready for a Remington clone.......jim
 
I love Savage actions and have had six Model 12s (never a target action, though) and still have one that has been trued up (not by Fred) and has a PacNor barrel on it in .223AI. On Saturday, at 28 deg. F, I shot some groups using 52 Bergers that measured in the .1s. It darn well does put 'em in there. I had a 6BR (rechambered PPC barrel) on it which I put 3,000 rounds through and it would shoot into the 2s all the time. Having said that, they are loosy-goosy for sure and the SAV-2 trigger rattles around in the trigger guard. It is now custom bedded into a Shehane stock and I keep it just because it's an old friend.

I'm sorry to see the Savage actions and guns get so high-priced. They have taken themselves out of the game as far as I'm concerned. I have a Jim Borden-built BAT/Krieger/Robertson that is the most beautiful rifle ever created. It's a looker, a shooter, and like comparing a Formula 1 car to a dirt-track racer as far as quality and tolerances go.

If I wanted to get into competitive shooting today, I would buy the best used BR rig I could afford, probably one of Bob White's from "The List", and rebarrel as necessary. For the price of a box-stock Savage BR/Target rifle you can have a top-of-the-line rig that will last forever and all you'll have to do is screw a new tube on once in awhile.
 
ReedG said:
If I wanted to get into competitive shooting today, I would buy the best used BR rig I could afford, probably one of Bob White's from "The List", and rebarrel as necessary. For the price of a box-stock Savage BR/Target rifle you can have a top-of-the-line rig that will last forever and all you'll have to do is screw a new tube on once in awhile.

Good advice. I bought one of my 40XBRs from Shooter's Corner.

http://www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/
 
While I'm more than slightly partial to the Savage Target Actions ;) I do recognize that having something a little different, a little special, often means a lot to folks and being able to order it up done 'your way' is worth quite a bit to.

Just because you get a semi-custom action from a reputable 'name' maker doesn't mean you might not end up having to get it trued up a bit - I did, and it kind of shook my faith in the whole deal.

Another option that might be of interest... there are now a couple manufacturers out there making actions with toggle bolt-heads like Savage:

Bighorn Rifles
Shilen Arms

From the rumors I've heard, the Shilen is basically a rebranded Stiller Predator - not sure how much actual difference there is otherwise. But it makes a person wonder if maybe Savage is doing some thing right after all ;)

Decisions, decisions... ;D
 
Thanks much for the input guys. I have heard of Big Horn before. I like the fact of being able to change bolt heads for caliber swaps. I have a 10FCP that I just recently had the action gone through with a new Brux barrel. With that and the Mcmill stock bedded the rifle is night and day compared to what it was. I really like the Savages, it was a shooter before I upgraded but now it really shoots. I'd like to some day give it a go with a benchrest rig. I can see what you mean about how the tuned Savage can shoot but not like a custom. By time you get all the parts, which can take up to 8 months you need to find a smith that make it all happen. All the best parts in the world won't hit the side of a barn if not assembled properly.
 
Here is my 2 pennies... I shot a team match this fall and individually the top 3 out 5 where shooting Savage F-class rifles. Two factory 6brs and one chambered in 6.5x47. The top shooter had a full custom Bat 6 dasher. Can't recall what the other gun was. Good luck.
Scott
 
I think the Savage bolt head design is sheer brilliance. A Savage action with custom barrel and goodies will shoot with the customs but we never seem to be happy with that after a few matches.
 
quillow said:
How does a trued and timed Savage target action compare to say a custom action. I know the tolerances are much tighter on a Bat or Stiller. I know the shooter is usually always the weak link but with all else being equal between the 2 (custom barrel and stock) is the tighter tolerances going to make a big difference on target? I can get a target action trued and timed for probably $400 cheaper than a custom one. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to bench rifles. Thanks for your input.

To start with the question is very vague, what do you plan on doing with the action? Do you want to shoot club match’s, registered match’s, and are you looking at short range bench rest or long range bench rest? Are all questions that would change the end answer.
Well I have played with both and I can say that as far as accuracy wise there is not difference. Yes the tolerances will be looser on a Savage over a custom action, but if you was to compare the Savage action to a blueprinted Remington 40x or 700 you would find that they would be just as sloppy, and may people have won with 40x's/700, and they are still competitive. The biggest thing is they are not as easy or comfortable to shoot. You will find that in the bench rest world Savage actions are looked down on. Most of the naysayers have never seen a Savage action let alone built one or even shot one. They just talk bad about them because of what they have heard from others, or other reasons.
The reason I don’t urge people to build a Savage for 100-300 yard bench rest is due to cost and parts availability. The actions are heavy and a light weight bench rest stock would need custom inletting. I have a friend that had a Savage built exactly the same way he had his Bats built. Both use Tom Meredith stocks, the Savage has a SSS Evolution trigger, and was timed and trued and built by Fred Moreo. He placed a 1 in 14 twist Krieger barrel, and the gun is in speck. Now with that said the guns shoot the same, and if you were blindfolded, you would have a hard time telling which was which on bolt lift. The triggers are close; the SSS trigger has a slight bit more travel until it breaks, over his Jewel. I also have a Savage that will fit into an IBS/NBRSA light gun class, and it behaves just like my Bat. The problem is when you figure cost, a target action is around $450 the T&T job is around $120, bolt handle is around $30, You must use a recoil lug and you’re looking at another $30, then Talley rings would run around $40 and trigger guard, and other small parts will put you up around $700, and then there would be $200 in the trigger. You could buy a new Stiller predator action for $850, get a Shilen or Jewel trigger and have a gun that you can get stocks for about the same cost.
Now in the long range game it is a bit of a different story. There are several laminated wood stocks available for a Savage; the need for a 2oz trigger on a 17 pound gun is not an absolute, and now the tables tune toward the savage. I would highly recommend a savage in the long range game. You should be able to built a super competitive gun for around $1000.00.
 
I have a Target Action that I had timed and trued by SSS.(be prepared for a Long wait) Very smooth and light bolt lift. The bolt itself is sloppy in it's raceway, accu-trigger is so so, and must be set to at least 1 lb in my gun. I don't mind, I'm not a bench shooter. Stocks, triggers, and other after market accessories are very limited. I like my Savage alot, but when I think a Rem clone or straight custom is the way to go...If you can afford it. I couldn't so I built a Savage. ;D I'm happy.
 
I think the application has a lot to do with if the Savage will really fit the bill or not. And in some cases, I don't think it's a question if the Savage can produce the accuracy needed, but that other actions are just much better suited to the application due to other aspects, such as weight or availability of stocks or even the availability of a trigger that is really comparable with a Jewell.

The area I speak of here is mainly point blank BR and is really because the rifles are already so limited in weight. When you have such a low weight limit, 10.5 and 13.5lbs as far as I know, you don't want to use an action that is really heavy because it will limit you in other areas that weight could be better used, such as the barrel and scope. And since the Savage does take a bit more effort to operate the bolt than some of the other super smooth custom actions, it may slow you down or even upset the rifle in the bags while the other guys with the smoother actions are shooting much faster with less time getting back on target. And in short range BR, getting all your shots off in one condition can make the difference between first and fifteenth really quickly.

Now if you are looking at the Savage for long range BR or F-Class or high power or any of the other disciplines where weight isn't such a big deal and having a super smooth action isn't quite as important, than the Savage is a much better option. Team Savage has been doing very well with stock Savage rifles, so I would think if you had a full custom built around a T&T'd Savage with better components, than you should have no real issue keeping pace with the other shooters. And it's not just Team Savage either, many others are doing well with Savage rifles as well.

The Savage Target action does have it's place in competition, and I do feel it's very capable of winning in the right hands. As long as it's used in a manner that is suitable for an action of it's type, I don't see why it would be a limiting factor in any build.

In an Elisio tube gun, I think a Savage action would be an excellent choice. Even for F-Class or long range BR, a Savage action would do very well as long as it was in a rifle built for that type of shooting. But I think if you want to shoot short range BR, you really have much better options available.

Though there may be a way to get around the Savage action's weight in a short range BR rig, and that would be to build a "skeleton rifle", such as those made by Gene Beggs and the late Shelley Davidson. Though I am still not sure if this is the best path, as it's only a thought.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek077.html
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/05/beggs-develops-radical-rig-in-west-texas-tunnel/
(Again, this is only a thought and I am not saying this is the way to go. Please refrain from ripping on me if this is a bad choice, as I am only stating it as an idea, not a "suggestion" or "best option", Thanks.)

So in my opinion, a Savage target action will work as well as many other actions in certain areas. But like anything else, it does have limitations and certain applications are best served with another action. But for those applications that are suited to the Savage, I doubt most people can shoot well enough to really notice any difference in accuracy between a Savage and a full custom.

Again, this is my opinion, and you know what they about opinion right?

Good luck
Kenny
 
Kenny, The trigger is an issue they are not in the same ball park, the Evolution trigger only goes down to 4 oz. but you have to hack out most of the rear pillar. If you can not get down to 2 oz. thats repeatable. If you are left handed it's a no brainer. That being said, yes i like them and they shoot well but to spend all that money trying to make a factory action to work,when i can get custom action for a little more. When you add up all you have to do you should add getting the firing pin bushed..........jim
 
johara1 said:
Kenny, The trigger is an issue they are not in the same ball park, the Evolution trigger only goes down to 4 oz. but you have to hack out most of the rear pillar. If you can not get down to 2 oz. thats repeatable. If you are left handed it's a no brainer. That being said, yes i like them and they shoot well but to spend all that money trying to make a factory action to work,when i can get custom action for a little more. When you add up all you have to do you should add getting the firing pin bushed..........jim

Jim,

Your points are well taken and I agree. If doing it again, I would bite the bullet and go custom up front. If someone already has an action and stock, that changes the calculation a little. BTW, I did need to send both of my bolts to Greg Tannel because of the "Savage bolt face dimple." After bedding, "Fredding" and bushing, they both shoot pretty well. ;)
 
Jim, I have only ever tried a Jewell once, and that was only for five shots and a few times dry firing to get a "feel" for it before going live. So while I have little experience with the Jewell, I will say that it was just an incredible trigger that would be hard to match.

On one of my own Savages, which is not a target action, I have a Rifle Basix SAV-2 that I tuned down to 5oz repeatably after some time tuning and stoning. I will say it's no Jewell, but it's a really nice trigger, and would be incredible had I never tried a Jewell before. It's not the 2oz that you can get with a Jewell, but even 5oz is really light when you think about it, and not nearly heavy enough to upset the rifle when touching off a shot.

If you had never had a really nice and light trigger before, the factory "Target Accu-Trigger" would be very nice as well. It adjusts down to 6oz, though it may take a bit to get it there and may even require re-springing. But to someone who has never used a really nice trigger, even that will feel like a million bucks.

And in reality, even a box stock Savage action will be very accurate with a good bedding job and a properly chambered and head-spaced barrel. The rifles used by Team Savage are supposed to be all 100% stock Savage, and they seem to do quite well. So if you put one together with a custom barrel and a high quality stock that was bedded properly, it should be a reasonably competitive rifle.

If you go to this link: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek075.html you will see "Gun of The Week #75", which is a Stevens (Savage) actioned F-Class barrel block rig using completely stock Stevens actions with no truing or tuning done. Granted, it does use a barrel block which takes a bit of stress off the action, but it doesn't make the action any straighter. It is reported to shoot very well, and the Savage Target Actions are built stiffer than the Stevens as well with an enclosed top and solid bottom.

Here is "Gun of The Week #36", the Savage owned by our own Moderator. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek036.html It too sports a factory Savage action, not a Target Action, and shoots very well.

I am not trying to say that Savage makes a better action than the custom guys do, nor am I saying they are a "replacement" for a custom action or are a "better" option. All I am saying is that if you want to build an inexpensive rifle that doesn't require a smith to fit the barrel or machine a new bolt when you want to switch to a different bolt face, and you want this rifle to be competitively accurate as well, then Savage is the way to go. They can save you a lot of money in many different areas, as the actions themselves are cheaper, not needing a smith for many things that you would with other actions is cheaper, and you can often find many parts for them for short money as well.

As for available stocks, Sharp Shooter Supply makes several models that are excellent quality stocks in good designs. I have a Dog Tracker, and it's awesome. Savage stocks are available from several other places as well, you just need to look around a bit. And even take-off's from the Target series (model 12) of rifles are a great stock and a good way to go if you can find one as well.

So while they don't offer the same pride as a full custom, and may not be as precise either, they are still good accurate actions capable of great accuracy if put together well.

Really not a bad choice for many people, especially those just starting or those not looking to compete on a national level.

Just my thoughts

Kenny
 
Kenny, I understand what you are saying,but i can get a trigger down to 4-6 oz. isn't cutting it for some. It will not work for those who shoot free recoil but it will work for those who hold it. The savage target action is right hand only. That is the end of the line for me.
I have a savage sporter in left hand that will shoot under a half inch,great hunting gun, my Dasher is on a Panda action and it shoots in the low 1's. Would the Savage do that i don't think,but would i take a 15 lb.gun hunting i don't think so. Each has it place.......
 
I have a target action Savage and had 2 of the old M12. They are great gun. Love the bolt heads and barrel nut system. With T & T and a custom barrel they will shoot great. Two main things about a custom action. ! smoothness of the action. My Bat and Stiller Diamondback can be opened with one finger, on a fired case, without moving the gun, and can be closed on a round with one finger, without moving the gun. No matter what you do to a Remy or a Savage, you can't get the heavy bolt lift out of them, and they will never be as smooth as a custom. If you try to shoot them as fast as a custom, you will disturb the setup and your group. #2 JEWEL TRIGGER nothing matches a Jewel.

Mark Schronce
 

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