Pushing 105 VLD's Hard

[HPMike800]

I'm looking to run Berger thin jacket 105VLD's a little harder than the norm. In all the talk a few years ago I never heard of these being a real problem. Most of the disscussion was about 140's and 115's.

Has anybody pushed thin 105 VLD's hard enough to have blow up's? If so, what velocity did you get? Out of what Barrel?

Mike

 

[MarkS]

Most of the time the VLD's don't shoot well when pushed hard.

Mark Schronce

 

[alf]

I had a 10 twist 6-284 that shot 95 VLD's at 3600, and never lost a bullet.

Might be a different program after the throat starts getting a little rough, though. Until them, hammer away.

 

[Rustystud]

I saw John Whidden loose a bullet at Butner a few years ago. I beleive he was shooting a .243 Winchester with a 105 Berger in a Broughton 1:8, 5C. The bullet made a white smoke arc at about the 900 yard line. I think he was shooting about 3150 fps. This was the only bullet he lost all day. Several others obsevered this bullet blow up.

Nat Lambeth

 

[1shot]

Mike,
I lost one during the end of a string of a 600 yd. match. 6mm 105 at 3123 fps. 1.775 Krieger bbl. Backed the charge down .50 gr. and haven't lost one since. Cartridge was a modified 243.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd

 

[drags]

rusty, was that bullet pointed if so could that have contributed to the bullet failure?
drags

 

[fullersson]

I shoot 105's in a .243 and haven't had any trouble with them. The only problem I've found with the Berger's is being able to get any of them.

 

[EricStecker]

The idea behind pushing the 105 gr VLD hard is a good one on paper and has been reported to work for some. Unfortunately, it is not a matter of "will the bullet fail" but rather "when will the bullet fail".

Remember bullet failure is the result of friction between the rifling and the bearing surface heating the bullet to the point where the core melts. If the amount of friction in your combination is low enough that it does not cause failure it is only a matter of time (shots) until your barrel is worn to the point where this friction is increased enough to make a bullet fail.

A couple of options are to use the Target version which is thicker (but unavailable for a bit longer). You could moly coat (or any other coating) to reduce friction. You could melonite the barrel and/or request that the barrel have a different land to groove ratio. We were able to prove in a Krieger barrel that thinner lands reduced the number of failures.

Anything you can do to reduce heat caused by friction will help this situation. Frankly, VLDs have been known to be difficult to tune at higher velocities but with the introduction of melonite and other things we've learned about how friction affect bullet failure it makes this concept a bit more possible.

Imagine high BCs and high velocity. Sounds good if it can be made to work consistently.

Regards,
Eric

 

[fullersson]

Mike, just in case you didn't know Eric in the post of above this one is the vice president of Berger Bullets. If I was going to listen to anyone it would be him. Eric, Thanks for keeping up with your customers are talking about and please get some bullets out for us common folk. I can get other bullets to shoot good but I have to seperate them out and that takes forever; with Berger I just pull them out of the box and go.

 

[HPMike800]

Thanks for all the input.

Privately I've had numbers that are all over the place. It seems about 3050 is safe in general and a little faster for those using 5R/5C barrels with moly. As far as accuracy, we'll see I guess.

I'm not a speed freek, so i'm not looking to push the limit. I just wanted to see what people have gotten in the past.

Eric, thanks for the input. Bergers honest information is always a real help. When it comes to thick 105 vld's you need to find a way to point them after they come out of the die or you won't sell many of them. Just my $0.02.

 

[fullersson]

Mike, I don't know if you're asking Berger to point the bullets so you don't have too or if you aren't aware that John Whidden sells a bullet pointing die. Seems to be a good product for long range shooting.

 

[EricStecker]

Repointing done in mass is problematic and expensive. It is best that repointing be done by the shooter so that you can make sure each bullet is formed properly. It is too easy to do this wrong (make bullets that won't shoot well) if you are not watching the process closely.

We are already working on a new 105 gr class bullet that will be made on a thick jacket. This new bullet will have a BC slightly higher than the original version. One change to this bullet that is important is that it will be slightly longer. It will still work in an 8" twist but it will be much closer to the edge of stability than previous versions. What this means is if you have a true 8" twist barrel you are fine. If you barrel is not a true 8" twist (not all barrels are exactly the twist rate stated) then this new bullet may not work.

Basically we are going to squeeze every bit of BC out of this class of bullet. We won't know for sure how it works until they are made which will not be until later this summer.

Regards,
Eric

 

[HPMike800]

Yea Baby! Having our cake (with frosting) and eating it too.

Fuller - you say you shoot Berger because their go to go out of the box and then call me lazy for not wanting to point them.

My point is not lost on the Berger folks, who seem to be ahead of the curve. I wish all of us luck on their success with the new 105 line.

 

[RDavies]

So Eric, how hast can the current thick jacket 105s be pointed, with normal 8" twist barrels, molied. It wont be a problem for my little Dasher, but I know someone building a 243AI and 2 others building 6/284s. Are they hanging together at the speeds these shooters will be loading to?

 

[15Tango]

I run the 105s at 3200 FPS out of a 1:9 twist and they're fantastic; I've never lost one. YMMV

-Wayne

 

[RDavies]

I know one of my friends has an 8" twist, I think the other is a 7.5 or 7.6 or there abouts. I wonder how quick they can push them with these faster twists.

 

[Obtunded]

We are already working on a new 105 gr class bullet that will be made on a thick jacket. This new bullet will have a BC slightly higher than the original version

Does this mean there is yest another change in so for the 105 "VLD", or is this in addition-to?

I used the "new" low-BC 105 VLD's in the first 300M match of the season, and years of learning and using the original 105's, 8% BC reduction....They are clearly a bit more work for the shooter!

Ian