PRS Action - Impact 737 or Kelbly Atlas Tactical?

[rijndael]

I suspect it's largely regional, but it's the same way here; Kelbly's are not common.

I've seen more Surgeons than Kelbly's and Surgeons are rare these days.

 

[moondog]

My point was from what I've seen (limited to matches in my vicinity) they are far less common than other actions for PMS.

No argument with that

 

[Ricochet007]

I guess it depends on what exactly you are looking for in an action.
I've been spoiled by my IMPACT.
The extra mass of an all steel bolt, handle, knob, with a squirt of One Shot, makes for a smooooth feed/extract cycle.

 

[PracticalTactical]

After working with my Defiance Deviant Tactical action for a while now, I have developed an appreciation for actions with controlled round feed.

When I first got the DDT action, the ejection was so aggressive that it D Shaped all my case mouths.

Keep in mind that I'm a neck turner and run tight necks, so I'm looking for feedback on neck clearances. The dents corrupt my ability to asses how loose a bullet fits in the mouth of a fired case.

The dent is also the source of runout after neck sizing.

I did weaken the ejector spring and that did help about 90 percent, but there is still a small dent. If I shorten the ejector spring any further, I will risk failure to eject, which is fine on an F Class gun but not something I want on a PRS rig.

I know lots of guys get OCD over neck runout and I'm certainly not above that. If cases are not deformed at ejection I get pretty much zero runout after resizing. If that helps or not I don't know but it makes me feel better at the very least.

Having the certainty of knowing the case would not eject until the neck is clear of obstacles before ejecting is something I have come to find comfort in and controlled round feed is looking like a nice solution.

 

[Delfuego]

@PracticalTactical Something doesn't sound right. I have been using nothing but push-feed w/o issue at steel matches since before the PMS series was invented. I know guys that have been using Deviant actions for 10yrs +/- and never had your issue. First, make sure your cases are not hitting/ejecting into your scope. Second, call Defiance, they have great service and are good people.

 

[PracticalTactical]

@PracticalTactical Something doesn't sound right. I have been using nothing but push-feed w/o issue at steel matches since before the PMS series was invented. I know guys that have been using Deviant actions for 10yrs +/- and never had your issue. First, make sure your cases are not hitting/ejecting into your scope. Second, call Defiance, they have great service and are good people.

Nope, everything is working the way its supposed to work.

Rem 700 actions are all guilty of it, that's just how they are designed.

The ejection plunger is pushing the brass to the right as the action is opened and the case smacks against the side of the barrel camber and action as it is drawn open. That obviously damages the brass.

Controlled round feed actions do not preload the brass to the side like that. The brass is drawn directly rearward until the base of the case contacts the kicker blade at the reward end of the bolt stroke. At that point it kicks the case out with a clear window through the ejection port. Hence, no damage to the case mouth.

If you are not noticing the D shape damage to your case mouths, you are likely just not looking for it and simply never noticed.

What I'm talking about here is well known to the precision bench rest guys, but those that are not focused on such perfect accuracy just tend to let it slide.

 

[rijndael]

If you are not noticing the D shape damage to your case mouths, you are likely just not looking for it and simply never noticed.

Or, you've clipped the ejector spring, so they fall in a neat pile next to the gun.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Nope, everything is working the way its supposed to work.

Rem 700 actions are all guilty of it, that's just how they are designed.

The ejection plunger is pushing the brass to the right as the action is opened and the case smacks against the side of the barrel camber and action as it is drawn open. That obviously damages the brass.

Controlled round feed actions do not preload the brass to the side like that. The brass is drawn directly rearward until the base of the case contacts the kicker blade at the reward end of the bolt stroke. At that point it kicks the case out with a clear window through the ejection port. Hence, no damage to the case mouth.

If you are not noticing the D shape damage to your case mouths, you are likely just not looking for it and simply never noticed.

What I'm talking about here is well known to the precision bench rest guys, but those that are not focused on such perfect accuracy just tend to let it slide.

I have 4 Defiance actions....3 Deviants and 1 Ruckus and none of them leave D shaped case mouths. 2 of them are single shot and the other 2 are repeaters but none of them damage the cases.

 

[rijndael]

I have 4 Defiance actions....3 Deviants and 1 Ruckus and none of them leave D shaped case mouths.

I have a Tenacity and a Ruckus. No dents.

 

[Delfuego]

The thread is regarding PRS Actions (Kelby's vs Impact). None of my actions do it. If I can simply find my all my brass after a stage I am happy. Push fed actions are accurate, safe and most importantly, reliable. CRF actions will not increase my score.

 

[PracticalTactical]

These are actual cases ejected from my rifle showing what the dented cases looked like before I shortened the ejector spring on Defiance Deviant Tactical action.

 

[BORGY76]

These are actual cases ejected from my rifle showing what the dented cases looked like before I shortened the ejector spring on Defiance Deviant Tactical action.

Wow, definitely wouldn't be acceptable in my book. No Gunsmith, so I couldn't even share an opinion. Did defiance say this was " normal "?

 

[PracticalTactical]

Wow, definitely wouldn't be acceptable in my book. No Gunsmith, so I couldn't even share an opinion. Did defiance say this was " normal "?

I didn't bother to call Defiance because this is nothing new to me. I was expecting it actually. Been down this road many times before with other rifles.

Some years ago I had Dan Dowling chamber a barrel for me and when I got the rifle back I noticed he shortened the EJ spring. I asked him why and the D dents were the reason. It was a standard practice for him. Dan Dowling BTW is one of the guys who invented the 6 Dasher and he was a great guy to deal with. Probably long retired by now I would assume.

If you are not a precision reloader, or just don't reload this is a non issue. If you are looking for 1/4 MOA accuracy, this is something that needs to be addressed.

I just wanted to make sure guys in this thread are aware of this potential problem and what to do about it. Just shorten the ejector spring, but not too short or it wont eject. I bought a couple spare springs so if I went too far I would not be SOL. Just shorten a little at a time and keep track of spring length as you go. I used a belt sander to shorten the spring, not snips.

Obviously actions with controlled round feed would not have this issue.

 

[DangerRanger]

My tenacity has absolutely never done that.

Granted, Alex wheeler went through it and built the rifle around it so maybe he did something along those lines, but my bergara doesnt do it, my Curtis never did it, my gas gun with dual ejectors doesn’t even do that. It looks more like an extremely overgassed gas gun slamming cases into the action/ deflector as they get launched into orbit.

I’ve seen people complain about the scratch on the case side from the ejector pressure of a push feed, but that is not the same, that’s destroying case mouths.

Hell I don’t even run *anything* through the case mouth of my brass out of the tenacity, no mandrel, no expander in the die, nothing. Zero denting or I would never be doing that.

Sucks that yours are

 

[69mach]

if everything else was equal i’d prefer the integrated recoil lug and scope base. it tends to add a little weight but i like the piece of mind that the scope base screws will never come loose in a match and no matter the beating the guns takes the scope base will never be the issue.

 

[Sheldon N]

I have both push feed actions (Lone Peak, Impact) CRF actions (TL3). There is no difference between the brass that comes out of either. None of them dent the brass.

The implication that you need to start cutting ejectors springs or that you wont be getting 1/4 MOA accuracy or that everyone's brass has dents but they are just not noticing it is nonsense.

 

[WildBill3/75]

My tenacity has absolutely never done that.

Granted, Alex wheeler went through it and built the rifle around it so maybe he did something along those lines, but my bergara doesnt do it, my Curtis never did it, my gas gun with dual ejectors doesn’t even do that. It looks more like an extremely overgassed gas gun slamming cases into the action/ deflector as they get launched into orbit.

I’ve seen people complain about the scratch on the case side from the ejector pressure of a push feed, but that is not the same, that’s destroying case mouths.

Hell I don’t even run *anything* through the case mouth of my brass out of the tenacity, no mandrel, no expander in the die, nothing. Zero denting or I would never be doing that.

Sucks that yours are

This.

Those cases look like an untuned AR beating on the case mouth from the shell deflector.

I've cut plunger springs in an AR to tune but never in a bolt gun. That's 100% not normal case mouth damage in a bolt gun.

To the OP;


Out of those 2 options I'd take the impact. But, you are making comparisons against a $1200 action to a $1350 action that aren't exactly apples to apples.

 

[moondog]

I had an Eliseo 6BR built years ago that did that. It was a Remington action. That's exactly what I did. Trim a little at a time until it doesn't smack the mouth against the action. The Atlas has a Mechanical ejector, doesn't flip the case out till the bolts back.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Just had a Terminus 3 lug in the shop. It felt awesome, but the lug contact was out so far I could have parked that mentioned BMW between two of the three.

Your not supposed to be checking things like that. They are all perfect.

 

[Ksracer]

I'm not sure if the OP has made his decision yet, but I built a PRS rifle for my GF using an Atlas several yrs ago and I never took it off the bench to a match.
The cases would get stuck in the bolt face while trying to eject unless you slammed the bolt back. I was sent one of the Heavy Duty ejectors at no charge but I didn't like the idea of not being able to pull the bolt without tools. I also wasn't confident it would fix the issue because even with the bolt out of the gun, it took quite a bit of force to tip a case out of the bolt face. I didn't want to chance her having problems at a match, plus I was out of time so I ordered another Impact to match the one I had run the year before and never looked back.

I recut the barrel before the new ejector arrived, so I don't know if it would have fixed it or not.
The action appeared really nicely made, especially considering the mid level pricing, but the nitriding had the roughest texture I've ever felt. You can hear the grating noise in the vid. The flutes on the bolt were very sharp also. Enough so that the bolt would drag the next cartridge in the mag back and forth and leave deep scratches in the case. I always kind of thought the rough nitriding played a part in making the cases stick in the bolt face also.

Anyway, Impacts are king in the PRS world. You can walk up to any staging area at a 2 day match and find more of them in 1 spot than you'll see Kelbleys in an entire year.