Proper use of expander die and mandrel on unfired brass?

[Steve Wilson]

I ordered a Sinclair expander die and mandrel yesterday for some new Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass. As it is now, the necks won't touch the bushing in my Redding F/L sizing die, which makes for harder bullet seating and larger groups. What's the best way to use the expander die and mandrel? Lube, no lube? What lube and how to remove it? F/L resize after expanding the necks?

I searched this forum and didn't come up with much.

Thanks,

 

[bigedp51]

I dip the neck in dry powdered graphite or use a Q-tip and apply it to the inside only and then remove it by brushing. On new brass I only use the expander die and no sizing dies.

Neck Tension — On brand new, unfired Lapua 6BR brass, neck tension is excessive. You should run an expander mandrel down the case necks before the first firing. This will reduce the neck tension while it fixes necks that may be dented or out of round. After the first firing, we suggest sizing the necks so that, after they come out of your sizing die, the neck outside diameter (OD) is .002″ less than the neck diameter of a loaded round with bullet seated. If that doesn’t work, try one smaller size bushing for .001″ tension. Many top shooters like low neck tension, but we’ve also seen heavy tension work. The .002″ under loaded OD is a good starting point with the 6BR.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/6mmbr-loading-for-newbies/

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension
Lapua brass is so good that you’ll be tempted to just load and shoot, if you have a “no-turn” chamber. However, some minimal case prep will ensure more uniform neck tension. This will produce better accuracy, more consistent bullet seating, and lower Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation (ES/SD). Lapua brass, particularly 6BR, 6.5×47, .243 Win and .308 Win comes from the factory with tighter-than-optimal necks. Before you seat bullets, at a minimum, you should inside chamfer the case mouths, after running an expander mandrel down the necks. The expander mandrels from both Sinclair Int’l and K&M will both leave the necks with enough neck tension (more than .001″) so you can then seat bullets without another operation. Put a bit of lube on the mandrel before running it down the necks — but remove any lube that gets inside the necks before seating bullets.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/

 

[Steve Wilson]

I don't have any powdered graphite but I do have powdered mica. Do you think that might work? I guess I could try it and see if there was any squeaking and/or dragging as the expander went in and out. I will also call Graf's in St. Charles later this morning and see if they have any powdered graphite in stock.

Just had another thought. What about regular old powdered graphite for locks from the hardware store?

Thanks Biged,

 

[fdshuster]

Steve: I've been using Imperial Die Sizing Wax for as long as I can remember. Recently expanded 80, 6BR Lapua cases to 30 cal. (BR) & had no problems what-so-ever.

80 perfect pieces, the vast majority with minimal runout. Easy to wipe off the inside of the case necks with a cotton Q-Tip.

 

[Leaddog]

I swab the inside of the necks with a Q-tip and a little bit of Imperial wax before expanding. Butter smooth operation. All new brass needs expanding and then neck sized for consistent tension.

 

[Laurie]

I also do the same as Charlie and Frank. Dry powder lubes have never worked well for me, but many people get on with them OK. The trick with the wax is obviously to apply it really sparingly with a Q-tip, the slightest film working OK. If you don't use some form of lube, you not only get hard press operation, but find that the mandrel acquires a brass plating or streaking, and that is not at all easy to remove.

 

[TonyR]

+1 on the Imperial Die Wax and Q-Tip as a lube. After expanding, I clean the inside of the necks with another Q-Tip soaked in rubbing alcohol. For me, this follows neck turning but you can end up with a blob of the wax inside the case in the shoulder area that flares in my annealer so it can't help the performance of a loaded round if it's left in there.

 

[Steve Wilson]

I will use the tried and true Imperial and Q Tip method, followed by the rubbing alcohol. Many thanks for the advice guys.

 

[markm87]

I lightly lube the inside of the first 10 of 50 or so cases with dillon case lube. That stuff transfers to the expander and will get you through the remaining brass.

I dry tumble in the vibratory after that...

I'll give the imperial a try next time.

 

[fdshuster]

I apply the Imperial to the expanding mandrel, insert it in the die body, then just touch a fingertip to the Imperial in the flat can, and swipe it across the top edge of the case mouth at 3 locations around the circumference, about 120 degrees apart.

Then a dry Q-Tip is used to remove it from the inside of the case neck. I use the least amount of Imperial possible. If I start to get the noisy resistance, especially when expanding up in calibers, I just add a tiny bit more wax.

Sounds more complicated than it is, and after doing it a few times, the process can be sped up & it takes very little time.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I never use lube with the mandrel. The force required to push the mandrel through the mouth is insignificant in my experience.

 

[amlevin]

Just had another thought. What about regular old powdered graphite for locks from the hardware store?

Thanks Biged,

Definitely does work. It's also available in most Auto Parts Stores, I know O'Reilly A/P has it as that's where I get mine.

Graphite is a good dry lube but it's dirty as all heck. I use a q-tip to apply some to the inside of a case neck. Only use it when I know it's going to be more of a "squealer". Otherwise I use the white motor mica in a "Graphiter".

 

[bigedp51]

If you have too much work to do on the farm and can't get to the reloadin' store you can use an old diary farmers trick........

Use Bag Balm on the inside of your case necks, it keeps your expander utterly strain free and it also heals puss filled sores while keeping your hands soft for the next milking.

NOTE: Mr. Bozo699 uses Bag balm on all his cases. ;D
(the rotten no good "expletive deleted" case greaser)

Its 97% lanolin

 

[bozo699]

If you have too much work to do on the farm and can't get to the reloadin' store you can use an old diary farmers trick........

Use Bag Balm on the inside of your case necks, it keeps your expander utterly strain free and it also heals puss filled sores while keeping your hands soft for the next milking.

NOTE: Mr. Bozo699 uses Bag balm on all his cases. ;D
(the rotten no good "expletive deleted" case greaser)

Its 97% lanolin

Ed,
Something told me to read this thread, when I got through Franks, Charlie's,Tony's, and Laurie's posts I almost quit as they both told Steve what I would have told him "Imperial wax" but something told me not to post another +1 on Imperial and something told be not to go back to the forum, something told me to read on as I saw Bigedp51 was the last poster and there were no elaborate drawings or ultra detailed writings in his first post and that just wasn't like Biged so I must read on,..
Yes I am sure glad I did as you are 100% correct, bag balm can fix just about anything, I use it around the "farm" (Ranch) all the time and have never considered it for case lube but by golly your right it would work and I may abandon using Imperial and start using it! I definitely would endorsed lubing cases for Fire forming with it,...especially old English military stuff ;D Just kidding all Ed and I are just joking around with each other.
Steve, use the Imperial wax.
Biged, thanks I got quite a laugh out of it
Wayne.

 

[bigedp51]

You can try Hornady Unique case lube also on the inside of your case necks.

You can also put it on your shoes to keep the cow feces (bovine scat) from rotting the leather from milking twice a day. (or protection from stepping in something bozo699 said in this forum) ;D

 

[JabaliHunter]

I also do the same as Charlie and Frank. Dry powder lubes have never worked well for me, but many people get on with them OK. The trick with the wax is obviously to apply it really sparingly with a Q-tip, the slightest film working OK. If you don't use some form of lube, you not only get hard press operation, but find that the mandrel acquires a brass plating or streaking, and that is not at all easy to remove.

This was exactly my experience with new 6.5x47 lapua brass and the imperial graphite in the application media pot. Will try the lube in future...

 

[Steve Wilson]

I did the Imperial wax with my finger; first lubing the mandrel and then lightly touching a finger to the wax and then swipes across the inside of the neck, followed with Q Tips dipped in rubbing alcohol to clean the wax and it worked like a champ. I could clean about 10 necks with each end of the Q Tip, dipping it in the alcohol every few necks, then switching to a clean end. So, around 20 cases per Q Tip. It left me with a .001 neck tension. All in all it went slicker than slick; no squeaks, dragging or protest. I won't ever fire a new piece of Lapua brass without sending it through an expander die/mandrel ever again.

Thanks ever so much,

 

[bozo699]

I did the Imperial wax with my finger; first lubing the mandrel and then lightly touching a finger to the wax and then swipes across the inside of the neck, followed with Q Tips dipped in rubbing alcohol to clean the wax and it worked like a champ. I could clean about 10 necks with each end of the Q Tip, dipping it in the alcohol every few necks, then switching to a clean end. So, around 20 cases per Q Tip. It left me with a .001 neck tension. All in all it went slicker than slick; no squeaks, dragging or protest. I won't ever fire a new piece of Lapua brass without sending it through an expander die/mandrel ever again.

Thanks ever so much,

Steve,
Your thread has been a very good one, I am glad the outcome was good for you, best of luck and shoot straight
Wayne.

 

[Steve Wilson]

Wayne,

I couldn't have got there without the great advise the forum gave me. Your mention that this has been a very good one means more to me than you will possibly know. Of course, I had no roll in how well it turned out....it was the other members who are responsible.

I tried touching the Q Tip to the Imperial, and then lightly rubbing it inside the neck. But it really was sort of a pain. How can you tell when you have touched it hard enough and if the Imperial has transferred adequately? You can't. That's why I switched to doing it with my finger and putting a couple of swipes across the inside of the necks.

Remember me saying that I could clean about 10 necks with the Q Tip, dunking it in the alcohol every few cases? I poured a little rubbing alcohol in the container's lid. What I discovered was that if you swiped too deep in the neck....down into the shoulder area.....it got dirty quickly. The solution was to only swipe the neck real good. Still, after about 10 cases, the Q Tip was getting dirty enough that I switched to a clean end.

I started this thread off saying that my search of the topic didn't return much, and that is why I posted this thread. With any luck, anybody else searching can find this one and all of the valuable help everyone has offered.

Thanks again to all of you guys....you are the responsible parties here.

 

[bozo699]

Wayne,

I couldn't have got there without the great advise the forum gave me. Your mention that this has been a very good one means more to me than you will possibly know. Of course, I had no roll in how well it turned out....it was the other members who are responsible.

I tried touching the Q Tip to the Imperial, and then lightly rubbing it inside the neck. But it really was sort of a pain. How can you tell when you have touched it hard enough and if the Imperial has transferred adequately? You can't. That's why I switched to doing it with my finger and putting a couple of swipes across the inside of the necks.

Remember me saying that I could clean about 10 necks with the Q Tip, dunking it in the alcohol every few cases? I poured a little rubbing alcohol in the container's lid. What I discovered was that if you swiped too deep in the neck....down into the shoulder area.....it got dirty quickly. The solution was to only swipe the neck real good. Still, after about 10 cases, the Q Tip was getting dirty enough that I switched to a clean end.

I started this thread off saying that my search of the topic didn't return much, and that is why I posted this thread. With any luck, anybody else searching can find this one and all of the valuable help everyone has offered.

Thanks again to all of you guys....you are the responsible parties here.

Steve,
That's what I love about this forum, all the guy's stick together and see a problem through. I have had many problems solved by dedicated forum members through post's,p.m's and phone calls and I am sure my next problem is just around the corner and you may have my answer

As far as the Q-tips I have much better luck with industrial style Q-tips they only have one end, the cotton seems to be wrapped tighter and doesn't poof up so bad. I roll it in the Imperial wax until it is packed on there fairly good, it doesn't take much on the case so I start off with a light roll inside the case mouth for the say first five then get a little more aggressive for say the next five or so then reload the tip, I can easily get 50 cases out of a single tip on fired brass if I am expanding it for some reason I use a clean tip each time so I don't get the wax contaminated. Another method that has worked real well for me is to wax about every 4th or 5th piece with the q-tip and pull the mandrel and lube it about every ten or 15 pieces, that seems almost as fast and effective but of course it depends on what your doing, for your purpose it would be plenty good, if you were expanding up 6br to 30 br then it wouldn't be, see ya and best of luck
Wayne.