Problems with scoring?

[chuckw2]

Two of the last 6- F-Class matches that I have shot at 600 or 1000 yards my scorer has made a mistake with my score.

When I get ready to shoot my record string of 20 shots, I use a small loading block that only holds 20 rounds of ammo.


The first time it happened I fired all 20 rounds in my loading block, put my OBI in my chamber and my scorer said I had only fired 19 rounds. I had to go back to my not so good ammo to fire the last shot. I do not know which shot my scorer missed so I do not know if it helped or hurt me.

This past weekend the same thing happened, removed my bolt, put the OBI in the chamber and my scorer said that I had only fired 18 shots. I was clean on this relay, so, I got up from the mat,
went to my good ammo box pulled two rounds to complete the string.

If I ask the scorer to call the shots, I can't hear him because I wear ear plugs and cans, I have lost a good percentage of my hearing due hunting without any hearing protection)


Do many of you guys record you shots, it seems like a pain in the arse when you are trying to gun them downrange in the same conditions as the last shot. Once I start shooting, I usually break the next shot as soon as the target appears.

What if I had recorded all my shots and the scored says I haven't completed the string. Who wins...



Chuck

 

[USAPatriot]

Is it possible to record your shots to tape? IIRC the scorer in some of the pistol matches records shots for playback. It's possible you could do something similar I guess. I think the end result of that would be that you'd shot 20 but only hit 18 or 19,according to the scorer), so you'd have gained nothing, really. Do your matches have a process to appeal? -Rod-

 

[rstreich]

I think the end result of that would be that you'd shot 20 but only hit 18 or 19,according to the scorer), so you'd have gained nothing, really. Do your matches have a process to appeal? -Rod-

This is all shot slow-fire and it's the scorer's responsibility to witness every shot. If the target doesn't go down after the shot, the scorer must call for a mark.

If it were me, I'd probably be in jail right now for beating the scorer severely about the head and shoulders. I shot High Power for three years on a service team--thousands of rounds in competition and never once even heard of a scorer missing a shot for record. OTOH, I have had scorers want to "verify" their score with my score book.

I think recording shots in a scorebook is pretty worthwhile myself. It can show you trends over time that you might not pick up on just out of memory. If you hit a lot of ranges, it's also a great place to record the little idiosyncracies of each range. It could be that I never had anyone lose a shot was because they could see that I was keeping track.

It shouldn't be any problem for you to record your shots and still keep the target in the hole. When the target comes up, knock it down, then record the previous shot while it's in the hole getting the current one marked.

Do they put on new centers for each relay at your match? If so, you could challenge and the pits could clear it up simply by looking at the target. But I'd still beat the scorer....

robert

 

[chuckw2]

Great post Robert, I always watch my shooter break the shot,then go straight to my Kowa. My scorer this Sunday was watching his buddy shooting on the next point to my right who was shooting in his first 600 yard match.

I like to change the target center almost every time I rotate into the pit. It just makes scoring the hit so much easier on a clean target face.

You know, I have a Jim Owens Long Range Data Book, never used it. Perhaps it would be very useful to record information during the shoot. I shoot at three 1000 yard ranges and one 600 yard range in the SE. I have no data from any of those shoots or range information. From now on I will.
..My regular shooting partner was not shooting with me do to family commitments, he is a pro, with him I do not have to worry

Still I finished the string clean, what if it was a big match, a regional, and I was out of match ammo and fired two 7's to finish the match. Heck what if I was out of ammo? Here Robert is where the scorer needs to have his arm broken off and beaten half to death with it.


From this day forward, I am going to record every shot, it will give me more time to watch for environmental changes.

Chuck

 

[rstreich]

When you set up, Chuck, have your scorebook right next to your ammo so that it's at the same distance. You should be able to record your shot then grab your next round without moving your arm any further.

I used one of the three-colored pens for recording shots also--blue for sighters, black for the first string, and red for the second string.

If both of these incidents happened at the same range, at the next match I'd also ask the match director if you could get a new center before your relay. He or she would probably love the chance to make a lazy/inattentive scorer look foolish.

robert

 

[Forum Boss]

At the F-Class Nationals I heard some comments from big-name shooters about "lost shots"--NOT in Sacramento, but in previous matches elsewhere. The guns are so accurate now that it is very possible to have "hole in hole" shots, particularly at the shorter distances.

One shooter suggested that the use of moving backers, as are employed in short-range benchrest, would be a solution. That means more work in the pits but it would eliminate the possibility of an un-recorded shot.

The other possibility, and it's a real one, is that a bullet may blow up on the way to the target.

 

[Asa_Yam]

At the F-Class Nationals I heard some comments from big-name shooters about "lost shots"--NOT in Sacramento, but in previous matches elsewhere...

One shooter suggested that the use of moving backers, as are employed in short-range benchrest, would be a solution. That means more work in the pits but it would eliminate the possibility of an un-recorded shot.

Let's get one thing stright here and now:
F-CLASS IS NOT BENCHREST, AND HAS NEVER BEEN BENCHREST.The equipment today may look the same. It may even be the same. But the rules under which both games are played are radically different.
The origins of F-Class lie in allowing physically disabled shooters,including ones with vision problems) to continue shooting alongside thier friends and associates in prone-only position matches. This means that F-Class shooters fire alongside their prone shooting bretheren, under the same competition rules, and using the very same range equipment,except for targets). For any event in the US open to F-Classers short of a declared F-Class regional or national match, there aren't enough F-Class shooters to fill more than a few firing points, let alone a whole range.

Unless the range does not have target pits,found only at ranges with maximum distances of 300 yards and less - and some sub-300 yard ranges have target pits as well), targets are pulled and marked after each shot. During the marking process, old bullet holes are covered with pasters, and shot spotters are inserted in the new bullet holes. Losing a shot on a range with pits is only possible under the following conditions:
* The shooter misses the target. Shank a shot, miss a wind change, dial in the wrong elevation, or explode the bullet - the end result is no hit on target.
* The target puller overlooks the shot. Even on a fresh target, it is possible to overlook a shot.

Close Doubles On a Range With Pits:
Put a bullet on or near the previous one, and you probably won't lose the shot. Instead, the shot spotter will explode,the spindle shatters under impact). Such an event is fairly loud and dramatic. Oh it might be possible to paste over a close double by accident, but such a hit isn't a "one hole" group anymore. And doing so usually implies the pit puller isn't doing their job anyhow.,It is a good practice for a puller to paste over holes in the spotter as they appear - just so they know when a new hit in the spotter appears.)

Moving Backers On A Range With Pits
This concept isn't practical for 600 yards and beyond, as targets are 6'x6' in size. Bullets can land anywhere on this surface - or to any direction around it. The backer needs to record all shots for a 30 minute time span, and usually for a minimum of 3 strings per shooter. The top edge of this backer needs to be a minimum of 12 feet above the floor of the pit. Making equipment capable of meeting these requirements, while remaining portable, easy to set up and take down, strong enough to withstand wind pressure, and inexpensive enough to allow use on multiple targets is a formidable engineering challenge.

...The guns are so accurate now that it is very possible to have "hole in hole" shots, particularly at the shorter distances...

NO. The rifles have been this accurate for a number of years. For example, Jerry Tierney's rifles at the 1000 Yard Benchrest Nationals in Sacramento were his wife's F-Class rig, and a restocked prone rifle. Other F-Class rifles are nothing more than prone rifles with minor modifications to permit easier shooting off of bags and rests.
Over the last few years, the equipment has gotten better, but not as rapidly as the shooters have improved.

 

[Forum Boss]

Asa,

Thanks for your comments. You've convinced me that a full-size backer would be impractical. I was just passing on what some guys were saying at Sloughhouse.

Two of the guys who suggested goin to moving backers had been charged with a "no hit" at a previous match somewhere along the way. They will both go to their graves certain that they hit the target with all shots in their record strings.

I suspect some rather inexpensive digital strain gauge could record the impact of a bullet on the target. But if the puller can't find the shot, that still leaves the question of "where did it go."

 

[EricBair]

"that still leaves the question of "where did it go"

Probably in the target next door

The only way you can challange is to have a plot sheet.
that said, I don't usually plot
I tell my scorer to sing out the value and shot #, if I don't hear it, I'll ask for it. If the scorer knows your paying attention they usually do too
Calling the value is expected in international competition and is something IMO we should work on here.

There are ranges in England and Germany that have sensors that show the target indication on a screen at the firing line instantly,pretty cool)

 

[Asa_Yam]

...I tell my scorer to sing out the value and shot #, if I don't hear it, I'll ask for it. If the scorer knows your paying attention they usually do too
Calling the value is expected in international competition and is something IMO we should work on here.

Eric,
Calling out shots is required in the US - see NRA rule 14.3.1,c),Scorekeeper's Duties)

When targets are scored in the pits, enter the value of each shot on the score card as signaled, announcing the value to the competitor in this manner: "Mr. Blank's first sighting shot,first shot etc.) is a." After entering all shots of the string, enter the total. If the competitor requests that the shot value not be called out in slow fire, the shooter forfeits the right to challenge the recorded score.,See Rule 16.1)

There are ranges in England and Germany that have sensors that show the target indication on a screen at the firing line instantly,pretty cool)

Costs depend on the system. Suiss-Acor systems are reportedly $15,000 per target. Most such systems require the bullet to be supersonic on target - or to hit a rubber sheet hard enough to give an acoustic signal loud enough for the microphones to triangulate upon. I'm not sure that such systems are capable of determining if shots don't land on target though.

 

[EricBair]

Right you are Asa
I guess the point I was trying to make is that all to often the scorer has to be prompted a bit. F-Class is new to a lot of folks,which is great) who may not be familiar with the procedure. Growing pains, maybe.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

There are ranges in England and Germany that have sensors that show the target indication on a screen at the firing line instantly,pretty cool)

There is one here in Texas as well:

http://spindlerarms.com/



MODERATOR's PS--Very nice range!:

 

[JER]

I think I'm in :love:

 

[rstreich]

...Two of the guys who suggested goin to moving backers had been charged with a "no hit" at a previous match somewhere along the way. They will both go to their graves certain that they hit the target with all shots in their record strings.

I suspect some rather inexpensive digital strain gauge could record the impact of a bullet on the target. But if the puller can't find the shot, that still leaves the question of "where did it go."

All this would tell you is that the shot hit the target. It wouldn't tell you which hole it went through.

Chuck's original post was for a scorer not paying attention. The shot is "lost" because the scorer didn't notice that the target went down so that he could record the score when it came back up. To expand on Asa's description a bit, after you shoot, you have to wait for the target to go down and get marked and scored. The scorer should be watching you shoot so that if the target doesn't go down, he can call for a mark. If no shot is found on the target, then a miss is scored and the spotter,the "mark") is left out.

So, a shot that is "lost" by the scorer is unforgiveable. There really is no excuse other than perhaps dropping dead.

It's also possible for a puller to "lose" a shot, I suppose, as it can be difficult to find shots when the targets were pasted on poorly--with lots of wrinkles on them. A shot right next to the spindle like Asa suggested is another possible scenario, but you'd have to be using a full paster to cover over both holes or just happen to orient your half of it just right.

The only scenario I can think of where a "lost" shot could occur in slow fire,and I think all F-class is slow fire, isn't it?), would be on a range without pits, especially one using reduced targets. However, I thought the rules allowed for such an occurence and gave the shooter some benefit.

Shots in one hole have always been a problem in High Power. Shooting 10 shots into a three-inch circle during a rapid-fire string will leave you with more than your share of alibi strings to shoot. That's what happens if not all of your shots can be found on the paper--you shoot it again and get the lowest values of your alibi string.

Thanks for the image of shooting out a spotter, Asa. I loved to do that when shooting sighters 'cause then I'd get a fresh center. But, man, did it suck during record fire.

robert

 

[Asa_Yam]

Chuck's original post was for a scorer not paying attention. The shot is "lost" because the scorer didn't notice that the target went down so that he could record the score when it came back up.

...

So, a shot that is "lost" by the scorer is unforgiveable. There really is no excuse other than perhaps dropping dead.

Been there, done that - you feel REALLY foolish when it happens. But it happens. Get distracted, or miss the target going down, and you too can lose a shot. This is why I have scorekeepers call out values - so I can verify they have recorded the correct shot # and score.

It's also possible for a puller to "lose" a shot, I suppose, as it can be difficult to find shots when the targets were pasted on poorly--with lots of wrinkles on them.

Shots landing on the lines, in the numbers, and near the scoring disc holes are also possible. One partial cure is for the pit puller to watch the impact area, not the target. Usually, it is possible to roughly determine where a bullet has struck, based only on the location of the splash in the impact area. This method isn't foolproof, but it works often enough to be reliable.

The only scenario I can think of where a "lost" shot could occur in slow fire,and I think all F-class is slow fire, isn't it?), would be on a range without pits, especially one using reduced targets. However, I thought the rules allowed for such an occurence and gave the shooter some benefit.

Yes to F-Class being slow fire. And yes to there being a rules provision:

14.9 Visible Hits and Close Groups
As a general rule only those hits which are visible will be scored. An exception will be made in the case where the grouping of three or more shots is so close that it is possible for a required shot or shots to have gone through the enlarged hole without leaving a mark, and there has been no evidence that a shot or shots have gone elsewhere than through the assigned target and when there are no excessive hits on one or two adjacent targets. In such case, the shooter will be given the benefit of the doubt and scored hits for the non-visible shots, on the assumption they passed through the enlarged hole. If such assumption could place a non-visible hit in either of two scoring rings, it shall be scored in the higher-valued ring.

This is why knowing the rules is CRITICAL.

Thanks for the image of shooting out a spotter, Asa. I loved to do that when shooting sighters 'cause then I'd get a fresh center. But, man, did it suck during record fire.

Yes to the latter. Target repairs take time, and losing track of the wind can happen in under 30 seconds.

 

[chuckw2]

Guys great input, I watch my target go down and back up.

I think always asking the scorer to call the shots, even if you really can't understand what they are actually saying) keeps the scorer on his toes.

When I am scoring, I will watch my shooter let out his breath, then go to the spotting scope to watch the trace. If conditions are such that I can't see the trace, or my shooter has strange breathing patterns, I watch him make the shot, then go to the scope.

If the scorer knows the shooter is recording his record shots in a data book it will make the scorer pay more attention.

God knows I have missed a shot while scoring once, I felt so bad. I try to focus just as hard on scoring my shooter as I do when when shooting. Also in the pits I really race to get the target back in the air. Shooting is only 1/3 of preforming well in a long range or mid-range match. Scoring and good pit service is a matter of pride.

In your pit bag, you always need to have extra spotters, extra value markers, black and white pasters, a small piece of cardboard and masking tape. This way you won't be down long if your spotter gets blown through your target.. You also need to keep a extra target center with you so you won't be down long if the spotter gets blown up.


Here's one for you, on shot number 9 for record you recorded a 10 in your data book ---your scorer recorded a 9 What happens ?

 

[Travelor]

In my experience the problem is not one of close hits, etc, but one of the pit crew running their mouths and not their scoring pens. Visiting in the pits and other distractions cause the missed scores rather than close shot placement.

 

[rstreich]

Here's one for you, on shot number 9 for record you recorded a 10 in your data book ---your scorer recorded a 9 What happens ?

It's been a while since I read the rules, but I think you're stuck if the scorer chooses not to accept your plots. It's your responsibility to agree with the score before you put the next shot on the target.

Like you, with plugs and cans on, I could never hear the scorer either. Hell, when I was really on top of it, I didn't hear anything. However, that was more about focus than ear protection,'cause I didn't have any trouble hearing the coach with wind calls in team matches.

The only way to be safe is to have your scorer set up close to you so that you can hear him. Depending on the range and the spacing between the firing points, your scorer should be able to set up about even with your knees. That way you can also check to see that they're paying attention when you reach for your next round.

When I scored, I always asked the shooter if he or she wanted to hear the scores. If they did, I'd set up close to their side. If not, I'd set up directly behind them so I could watch the wind and their trace.

Asa is definitely right about knowing the rules. I always kept the current rule book in my stool. I had lots of occasions to correct line and pit crews on the rules, even at the Nationals.

robert

 

[mysticplayer]

Having had the enormous experience of ONE F class match, thought I would throw in my observations.

I am sure the procedure is the same/similar to that used everywhere and once I figured all that was going on, it seems very difficult to not get the scores right.

The shot is taken, the board goes down. If it doesn't go down, the shooter and/or scorer calls for a mark. The board comes up with a marking disk AND the score indicated on the target,scores are marked around the perimeter of the target to tell what the marker has seen).

I see the board and the indicated score, mark the score,use a jiffy/ink marker as pens almost always die during a match and need the paper to be held firmly). Instead of marking 10, I just put a dash. Other numbers are marked but hopefully, not too many of those. Listen for the scorer to tell me what he/she is scoring both by shot# and value.

Bang. Board goes down. Shot marker is removed and hole TAPED. Marker is put in new hole, score indicated on target, up the board comes. I see the board, etc, etc, etc.

If the shot is taken but no hole is found, the shot is marked LOST. That's it...final.

I don't see how ANY shot could be lost by 'hole in hole' because every shot is made on a taped over target,no holes anywhere). If the shot hits the shot marker, that is pretty obvious as ours are plastic, blow up and really alot of fun to do. I don't think the guys in the pits like it though

If the shooter is placing them all really close so that you are taping over tape, that might fall off but normally, the wad of tape is removed long before that happens and either a larger marking dot is put on or the center replaced,up to those in the pits).

With this system, we sailed through 5 relays over 2 days with zero problems. There were a few times that a shooter might want a target hole rechecked because it was viewed as being close to the scoring line/circle. I left it to the honesty of those in the pits. They are seeing the target 6" away. Me, a bit further back.

I think marking your own score is important so that you can correct a problem immediately. We too have no recourse if there is a disagreement AFTER the relay is done. The score put down by the scorer is final unless it is disputed before the next shot is taken. The pits keep no record of our shots.

Maybe the system shot eleswhere is different but what I experienced at this match seems to work very well.

Jerry

 

[usngunner]

As the rule was explained to me, if your target comes up with a miss, and you do not "challenge" it at the time, even if the hole is found later, it doesn't count.

If you do "challenge" the call, and the shot is found later, the points are given.

At my last match, my shooter was shooting 10's and x's with a couple of 9's tossed in, then was given a miss. I asked him if the shot broke clean, he said yes, so I "challenged" the call. The pits double checked the target, but didn't find it. His next shot was an X, I made sure the match director knew I had a possible issue, but wasn't going to hold the relay up, but if they found it later, I was on record. It ended up the dropped shot was a miss, really bad wind that day and a gust got him, but it covered the bases for him just in case.

Another shooter that day had the same thing happen, he didn't "challenge" the call, but they found the shot after the relay when they were cleaning the target. The first thing the match director asked was "Did you "challenge" the call?" He hadn't, and as he didn't "challenge" the call, he couldn't take the points.

I'm not going to go to the point of questioning a point call, but for a miss when everything was pretty much in the center, what the heck, better safe than sorry in my opinion.