Problems when "upsizing" 22-250 brass to 6mm250

[ptf18]

I've been using a batch of W-W 22-250 brass that I "upsized" for my 6mm250 for the past many years. Ive gotten 5-6 firings out of the cases and now the primer pockets are enlarged.

I got some new W-W 22-250 cases, "upsized" them to 6mm250 and now found out that the necks are WAYYYY out of wack.... bent over.

Im doing something wrong but dont know what so Im asking for some "technical assistance"

The only prep work I did to the new brass was to chamfer the neck mouth, lube the ID with Imperial wax and FULLY "upsize the case with a 6mm diameter expander and a .266 neck bushing and then run the case back down over the expander.

I suspect that the neck was "bent" when I pushed the case over the expander but I dont know how I could have done it any other way.

I suspect that I'll be fire forming the brass (100 pcs) to "straighten" out my mess but I really hate to run another 100 rounds down the barrel just to do this.

Thoughts please?

 

[Terry]

Is this what you used?

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/case-preparation/neck-turning/turning-expander-mandrels/sinclair-generation-ii-expander-dies-prod38807.aspx

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/case-preparation/neck-turning/turning-expander-mandrels/sinclair-expander-mandrel-oversized-prod33134.aspx

 

[ptf18]

Terry: No. First time Ive every seen these. I dont know if they would "solve" my problem as it seems that the case body is not supported when the mandrel is "pushed" into the neck to "upsize" it.

I would think that if the case body is not supported when shoving a larger ("upsized") mandrel into it the case would have a tendency to "cock" over thus "bending" the neck. It seems that this is the issue Im having now.

Maybe Im thinking inncorrectly?

 

[jonbearman]

It is a tapered mandrel and I go slow and constantly turn the case to avoid putting pressure one way while necking up. What lube are you using? How fast are you pulling the handle?I go alittle and back out and turn,repeat till you are all the way through. Try rcbs lube, wax isn't always the answer if you have stubborn brass so to speak.

 

[ptf18]

Well now that Ive got a 100 EMPTy cases ( I pulled down the loaded ammo this morning) Im wondering if I should the Cream of Wheat method of fire forming the cases.

I dont really need to form the cases to the chamber as the cases are currently pretty darn close to the chamber dimensions BUT RATHER just straighten the necks out.

Thoughts?

 

[jonbearman]

The cow method would reduce wear and tear but its a shame you couldn't find a fireforming barrel and have it reamed with the same reamer so you could use the cow or load and shoot.

 

[ptf18]

I think the COW is my best bet. Now to find out a recommended charge of the Unique or 231 I have on hand.

 

[Ackman]

I use WW 250Sav. necked down in one gun and PMC 22-250 necked up in the other. Necking up an expander mandrel is the way to go. The two cartridges have a very slight difference in shoulder angle but making 6-250 brass either way works just fine.

I think the COW is my best bet. Now to find out a recommended charge of the Unique or 231 I have on hand.

You don't need to do that. Just use bullets and work up a load.

 

[savagedasher]

Upsizing I fell you must use a tapered expander with plenty of lube. The COW method works great also. You said the primer pocket shoot lose after a few times.
Normally that comes from Too much pressure. Larry

 

[artbosco]

I've been using a batch of W-W 22-250 brass that I "upsized" for my 6mm250 for the past many years. Ive gotten 5-6 firings out of the cases and now the primer pockets are enlarged.

I got some new W-W 22-250 cases, "upsized" them to 6mm250 and now found out that the necks are WAYYYY out of wack.... bent over.

Im doing something wrong but dont know what so Im asking for some "technical assistance"

The only prep work I did to the new brass was to chamfer the neck mouth, lube the ID with Imperial wax and FULLY "upsize the case with a 6mm diameter expander and a .266 neck bushing and then run the case back down over the expander.

I suspect that the neck was "bent" when I pushed the case over the expander but I dont know how I could have done it any other way.

I suspect that I'll be fire forming the brass (100 pcs) to "straighten" out my mess but I really hate to run another 100 rounds down the barrel just to do this.

Thoughts please?

What's the actual size of your neck chamber?

How much neck tension are you applying to the neck with the .266" bushing?

You could be apply too much neck tension with insufficient lube prior to your second expansion.

Why the second expansion?

Why the Upsize/Necking up [expansion], squeezing down/neck tension application, and then the additional expansion? Too many steps.

I expand necks once, and only once, turn, then load with my normal Rifle powder and charge, and then seat an inexpensive bullet with .002" to .003" of neck tension. Take it to the range and shoot it. It's really a simple process. 40,000 to 60,000 PSI will straighten everything out quickly, assuming you have a straight chamber.

Cream of Wheat is for breakfast. Pistol powders for Pistols.

 

[BoydAllen]

The following is a method that has been used for another caliber that requires expanding up. I know that it sounds weird, but for that situation, it works very well. I have not tried it for the caliber that you are working with.

When making brass for a .262 neck 6PPC, one way to accomplish it, so that the expanded necks are straight, and the cases are well formed, is to expand the .220 Russian Brass slightly, prime the cases,load them with a suitable rifle powder (any powder that I would use to shoot the normal range of bullet weights in a 6PPC), and seat a .22 caliber bullet. After that, using a fire forming barrel, making sure that my bullet would impact well within the area of a back stop, the .22 bullet is fired down the 6MM barrel.

A variation that I came up with was to turn a little off of the neck at .22 caliber before loading such that there is a little expanding up to do for turning at 6mm, but not enough to make the necks crooked from the force required.

This method produces very straight cases. I would not use it if I did not have a fire forming barrel.

I first read of this method in an article in Precision Shooting (or possibly a post on the internet) by James Mock, and added my own slight modification, turning at .22 caliber.

 

[ptf18]

Fellows: After reading about different methods of using the COW fireforming method this is what I tried in an attempt to "straighten" the necks of my crooked 6mm250 brass.

Starting with 8gns of Unique and just a 3/4" tuff of tissue (no COW as I read others hard issues with the stuff sticking to the interior of the case) I fired a case off.

No change in out of roundness... no change in length (base to shoulder measured with a RCBS pre-mike)

I increased the charge all the way up to 18gns..... very minimal case dimension change...... I only did 6 cases.

Im giving up on this.

Need some thoughts.

I've got some 90gn 6mm Speer bullets. Perhaps I should just load them up and shoot the 90 plus cases I have primed and upsized to 6mm250... with out of round necks. I really hate to use barrel life doing this but........

OR

Ive got 100 NEW W-W 22-250 cases.

Perhaps I should get some smaller than 6mm expanders (or get 6mm diameter ones and turn them down to a couple different diameters) and then expand this new lot of brass to a 6mm neck in a couple stages. Say .230, then .235and finally to .243 (6mm).

Thoughts?

 

[BoydAllen]

Next experiment: Do the same thing but anneal first. Winchester brass is known to be on the harder and springier side. Perhaps doing a proper "stress relief"/anneal (not fully softened, using the latest methods) will make it take the shape of the chamber better. Also, since you know have determined a safe pistol powder alone charge, I would be interested in what you would get putting that charge in an unexpanded .22-250 case, and firing it before expanding at 6mm.

 

[fguffey]

I got some new W-W 22-250 cases, "upsized" them to 6mm250 and now found out that the necks are WAYYYY out of wack.... bent over.

Im doing something wrong but dont know what so Im asking for some "technical assistance"

Technical? I have 22/250 cases with 30/06 head stamps, when forming 6mm-250 I could have stopped at .243". I have formed 22-6mm Remington cases from 30/06 and 25/06 cases for the purpose of forming 22/6mm Wildcats.

Necking up a 22/250 to 6mm (243)/250 should require less homework/memory work. I do not have the same problems you describe. In your explanation it appears you are leaving out a procedure or two. When I neck a case up I apply a lot of pressure on the neck while the case body is not supported. For example, when I neck up a 30/06 case to 35 Whelen the case shortens .035" +/- a few. I know when I neck up a case the case neck shortens, personally I do not care what happens to the case body length from the shoulder to the case head when necking the case up. If the length of the case from the datum/shoulder is is a problem I use cases with longer cases bodies. I use 280 Remington cases when forming 30/06 wildcat cases. The 280 Remington case body is .051" longer than the 30/06 from the shoulder to the case head.

necks are WAYYYY out of whack....

Back to necking up on a free standing case. Necking up applies a lot of pressure to the neck, the neck is supported by the shoulder and the shoulder is supported by the case body. And I said I do not care what happens below the neck because: Once the neck is necked up the ram continues up until the case is full length sized by the full length sizer die. After sizing the ram is lowered and the sizer plug is pulled back through the neck. The case should be straight without whack-out necks.

Then there are all the stories about what happens when the sizer plug is pulled through the neck, like pulling the neck, shoulder and the extractor rim. When I form cases I do not use cases that have been fired so many times it has too much resistance to sizing. My favorite case for forming is new, then there is once fired. After that a reloader should consider annealing. If a new shoulder is going to be formed the reloader should anneal the case down to the location of the new shoulder.

F. Guffey

 

[jpretle]

I use a tapered expander mandrel and Imperial lube, on 1x fired 22-250 brass. I expand to 6mm, as a first step, then resize the neck in a Redding 22-250 die using the appropriate bushing. I don't recall losing any cases to collapsed shoulder or 'bent' necks. Occasionally, I have found one side of the neck longer that the other, but believe that to be due to the lack of consistency in brass thickness. All brass gets a length trimming anyway.
I do not fire form and get 'competition' accuracy from full loads on the first firing.
I have had brass requiring neck turning, but most lots I have used did not require this.

 

[sparky123321]

Someone suggested this method to me years ago and it works better than anything else I've tried when necking up brass. I was crushing cases using normal expanding mandrels.

Buy a box of Berger VLD's in the caliber you are necking up to. Hold the VLD bullet inverted in a Hornady bullet puller, using the correct size collet. Lube the case neck well with Imperial sizing wax. Slowly raise the case into the bullet puller with the inverted Berger VLD fixed in the collet. I've never crushed a case using this method. You don't have to worry about galling or brass build up on the mandrel. Just put a new bullet in the collet if it gets worn out. One bullet will last a long time though.

Give it a try. If it works for you I can't take credit for it. Like I said above, someone suggested it to me years ago.

 

[Brians356]

I have to say, that's a brilliant idea. I love improvising like that and having it work out. Kudos to whomever thought of it.