Problems dialing in 75gn ELD-M in .223

[Jeffrey Curl]

I have been using N140 behind the 75gn ELD-M and cannot find a reliable load.

I have a TL3 action with a pre-fit 26" Criterion .223 match chamber (.090" Free bore) heavy bull barrel with a straight taper suppressed with a 7" Thunderbeast .30 cal. I had 90 rounds of factory Berger 77gn OTM Tactical that I ran through the rifle to get a baseline and the Lapua brass. I sorted the ammo by CBTO and found that they varied from 1.833" to 1.840". I did a mini seating depth test and then reseated them all to 1.837" where they shot the best and shot all the remaining rounds with great results. Average MV across 20 rounds was 2798 fps. I noticed 2 issues doing this.

1. With 5 shot groups I always seemed to have one flyer. With the flyer, the groups would run around .416" to .618" with a seating depth of 1.837". Without the flyer, the groups were .245" to .512". This flyer was not me. I am shooting at 100 yards with a 1 lb trigger, loaded bipod, heavy rear bag, all parallax dialed out and little to no mirage. I am using 36x and very close to dead on with every trigger break. I am directly behind the gun. On cloudy days, I'm shooting prone and on sunny days, I'm shooting from a bench for reduce mirage.

2. Small changes in seating depth with the Berger factory seemed to matter a lot with the below 5 shot groups all shot on the same day.
a. 1.833"=.626"
b. 1.837"=.422"
c. 1.838"=.943"
d. 1.839"=.802"
e. 1.840"=.926"

So I started load development. In the past, I have loaded for .308, .300bo, 6.5cm (2 different rifles), and 7ss and very happy with the results. I have always used the OCW method with some variances from time to time followed by seating depth test. I have actually loaded .223 before but that was for an AR where I expected less accuracy then my bolt guns.

I full length sized the Lapua brass using a full length Forstor die until the bolt with the firing pin removed closed with no resistance. The guts are removed from the die. I am using a .222 expander mandrel for neck tension. I trimmed all the cases to the same length. During this process, I used 7 1/2 primers and N140 Powder. I have 7 boxes of 75gn ELD all from the same lot. All powder charges were weighed with an FX-120i.

I did a Satterly/pressure type test from 22.3 gn to 25.6 gn with a chronograph and the bullet seated .020" off the lands. I identified a couple of spots in velocity and where the bullets printed close on paper and the ES was not bad. One combination was 23.2 and 23.5 gn at 2790 and 2834 respectively. They printed on paper within .22". I loaded up 5 rounds at 23.36 gn with a velocity of 2791 and it shot 1". I did the same thing with 2 other areas of interest at higher velocities and they all shot about 1".

I liked the 2800 fps velocity range which was also the same as the Factory Berger so I also loaded up a seating depth test for 23.4 gn from 1.962 cbto which is .007 jump all the way to 1.908" cbto for a little more then .060 jump at .003 increments (19 groups). I got very good results on 3 shot groups from 1.944" to 1.935" including .29" group at 1.938. However, when I shot 5 shot verification loads it went to crap again.

I also explored several other areas at higher velocities that looked promising on the Satterly test but all went to crap at verification.

I am currently working on the 3rd loading of the brass and plan to Anneal after finishing up the 3rd firing. I now have 274 rounds on the barrel.

ALL shots including the Berger's were done with the suppressor. Just for grins, I did take the suppressor off for the very last group I shot with the 23.4 gn load at 1.939" and it did tighten up to .457 but even it still had the one flyer.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. I really expected to achieve .5" groups with frequent smaller groups so I am quite disappointed with these targets and consistent flyers. My next thoughts are the following:

1. Rerun the workup using OCW but at what starting seating depth (gun seems very picky about seating depth) using 75 eld and N140.

2. Switch to 2920 which I have but that is a ball powder and we get 100 degree temps in SE Texas. I would like a year round load.

3. Try the Sierra 77 gn with cannelure which I have just to try another bullet.

4. Buy expensive Bergers for plinking... Ugh.

The first 2 photographs are with Factory Bergers seated over .100" from the lands.
The 3rd is a close up of part of the seating depth test at 23.4 gns
The 4th is 5 shot verifications using 1.939, 1.938, and 1.937. I thought I was on to something with 1.939.
The 5th is verification with 1.939 falling completely apart with flyers.

Any thoughts or help would be much appreciated.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

What is the twist rate of your barrel? What scope? 0.007 range for seating depth, would think 0.010- 0.025 each step would show an actual pattern and depth to focus on.

 

[LCazador]

Try sorting your bullets base to ogive first then by weight. Sounds like you have a bullet base to ogive variation.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

What is the twist rate of your barrel? What scope? 0.007 range for seating depth, would think 0.010- 0.025 each step would show an actual pattern and depth to focus on.

7 twist and Razor gen iii

 

[Fast14riot]

Are you shooting these from a magazine or single feeding? Up around 24gr RL15/N140/Varget under a 75-77 has been a pretty standard service rifle load. Double grouping usually tells me I'm in between OBT nodes, last round fliers especially magazine fed tells me something is happening during feeding or shooting.

 

[RegionRat]

1. With 5 shot groups I always seemed to have one flyer. With the flyer, the groups would run around .416" to .618" with a seating depth of 1.837". Without the flyer, the groups were .245" to .512". This flyer was not me.

Then it isn't a flyer, it was really the instability of the load. Hard to say if that was workmanship, or the gun just didn't like the recipe.

Small changes in seating depth with the Berger factory seemed to matter a lot with the below 5 shot groups all shot on the same day.

Unless the results repeat several times, these five shot samples fooled you.

If there really is something to the seating depth spread, it will hold up for longer than 5 shots and on several outings.

I did a Satterly/pressure type test from 22.3 gn to 25.6 gn with a chronograph and the bullet seated .020" off the lands. I identified a couple of spots in velocity and where the bullets printed close on paper and the ES was not bad.

There is no such thing as a Satterlee Velocity Flat Spot, so focus on the target results.
Nothing wrong with keeping track of the velocity, but not because of a Satterlee thing.

The Audette Ladder is a more valid description of a test that can uncover potential compensation nodes, but even those results need re-test and they only focus on the target while at a distance where the trajectory can spread. The valid test results are not based on velocity, but they are based on the shot-fall on the target. Don't fall for the junk science you find on the internet.

They printed on paper within .22". I loaded up 5 rounds at 23.36 gn with a velocity of 2791 and it shot 1". I did the same thing with 2 other areas of interest at higher velocities and they all shot about 1".

What this teaches you, is not to be misled by test methods that use small samples.

A BR shooter runs for 5 shots at a time in a group, then all the groups go into an aggregate. The skilled competitors will adjust their loads for the conditions and keep changing as the conditions change. However....

That has nothing to do with load development for a sporting gun, so be careful not to ingest fractions of concepts taken out of context. Unless you are shooting BR, don't get distracted when folks invoke parts of BR concepts into the type of shooting where ammo is preloaded.

Your results in the above paragraph would mean that it really is a 1" gun with those combinations, and occasionally you may find a 0.2 when the roulette wheel stops on your number, but it will not hold for long before it goes back to 1".

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. I really expected to achieve .5" groups with frequent smaller groups so I am quite disappointed with these targets and consistent flyers. My next thoughts are the following:

1. Rerun the workup using OCW but at what starting seating depth (gun seems very picky about seating depth) using 75 eld and N140.

Try and run a tangent ogive to start up. Something like 77 SMK with N140 or Varget just to evaluate the gun with something less depth sensitive. Then try something like an SMK80 or a Berger 80.5 and see if your seating depth matters.

High BC is important, but it is also cold comfort if it doesn't make good groups or requires you to chase seating depths all day.

The consistency of the BC is what you are really after, and it must not me sensitive to seating depth in a context where you pre load the ammo.

Unless you are loading at the bench, really narrow seating depth nodes and charge nodes are not what you want to hang your hat on.

Switch to 2920 which I have but that is a ball powder and we get 100 degree temps in SE Texas. I would like a year round load.

You should try and master a single base extruded powder first, and do it across wide swings in weather.

You can also run ball powders just for the experience and for bulk loading, but be prepared to keep the batches tuned to the season.

Fooling around with more than one kind of powder is good for the experience, and it will also expose you to those differences that will make you appreciate why certain powders/bullets are called Pet Loads. It will also teach you about cleaning.

By having the best stable and forgiving baseline from a tangent ogive bullet with a good DOPE, you can then branch out a little into tricky topics like ball powders, double base powders, secant ogives, etc.... But, keep a good baseline load that you can learn to watch the condition of the barrel and also the driver.

If you feel compelled to try other bullets, maybe consider hybrids. These bring the best of the tangent and the secant designs together, and are less sensitive than straight secants.

Shooting in lots of different weather and keeping a predictable DOPE is a challenge for rookies, but the vast majority of sport shooters and loaders never master this, and most are even not aware they can't do it.

Pre-loaded ammo that will give a stable performance in different weather is a high goal. It takes lots of work to get past the basics of reloading and load tuning, just to get ready to do this. The stability of the DOPE and understanding of the barrel condition, means you are graduating to actual shooting.

This also means that you are looking for a "wide window" where the gun/ammo performance is predictable. Try not to get distracted by the temptation to chase a very narrow node because it shoots a temporary little group at the expense of 95% of the time.

Give yourself the best chance to learn the ropes with a tangent ogive (SMK 77) and a known stable single base extruded powder, (N140, Varget), before you take on the more sensitive tricky components. These may not give the record breaking groups, but your overall steady average will keep you happy while you learn to shoot well enough to call the difference.

Good Luck and in for the range reports.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Are you shooting these from a magazine or single feeding? Up around 24gr RL15/N140/Varget under a 75-77 has been a pretty standard service rifle load. Double grouping usually tells me I'm in between OBT nodes, last round fliers especially magazine fed tells me something is happening during feeding or shooting.

Mag fed bolt action but running the bolt slow.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Then it isn't a flyer, it was really the instability of the load. Hard to say if that was workmanship, or the gun just didn't like the recipe.


Unless the results repeat several times, these five shot samples fooled you.

If there really is something to the seating depth spread, it will hold up for longer than 5 shots and on several outings.


There is no such thing as a Satterlee Velocity Flat Spot, so focus on the target results.
Nothing wrong with keeping track of the velocity, but not because of a Satterlee thing.

The Audette Ladder is a more valid description of a test that can uncover potential compensation nodes, but even those results need re-test and they only focus on the target while at a distance where the trajectory can spread. The valid test results are not based on velocity, but they are based on the shot-fall on the target. Don't fall for the junk science you find on the internet.


What this teaches you, is not to be misled by test methods that use small samples.

A BR shooter runs for 5 shots at a time in a group, then all the groups go into an aggregate. The skilled competitors will adjust their loads for the conditions and keep changing as the conditions change. However....

That has nothing to do with load development for a sporting gun, so be careful not to ingest fractions of concepts taken out of context. Unless you are shooting BR, don't get distracted when folks invoke parts of BR concepts into the type of shooting where ammo is preloaded.

Your results in the above paragraph would mean that it really is a 1" gun with those combinations, and occasionally you may find a 0.2 when the roulette wheel stops on your number, but it will not hold for long before it goes back to 1".


Try and run a tangent ogive to start up. Something like 77 SMK with N140 or Varget just to evaluate the gun with something less depth sensitive. Then try something like an SMK80 or a Berger 80.5 and see if your seating depth matters.

High BC is important, but it is also cold comfort if it doesn't make good groups or requires you to chase seating depths all day.

The consistency of the BC is what you are really after, and it must not me sensitive to seating depth in a context where you pre load the ammo.

Unless you are loading at the bench, really narrow seating depth nodes and charge nodes are not what you want to hang your hat on.

You should try and master a single base extruded powder first, and do it across wide swings in weather.

You can also run ball powders just for the experience and for bulk loading, but be prepared to keep the batches tuned to the season.

Fooling around with more than one kind of powder is good for the experience, and it will also expose you to those differences that will make you appreciate why certain powders/bullets are called Pet Loads. It will also teach you about cleaning.

By having the best stable and forgiving baseline from a tangent ogive bullet with a good DOPE, you can then branch out a little into tricky topics like ball powders, double base powders, secant ogives, etc.... But, keep a good baseline load that you can learn to watch the condition of the barrel and also the driver.

If you feel compelled to try other bullets, maybe consider hybrids. These bring the best of the tangent and the secant designs together, and are less sensitive than straight secants.

Shooting in lots of different weather and keeping a predictable DOPE is a challenge for rookies, but the vast majority of sport shooters and loaders never master this, and most are even not aware they can't do it.

Pre-loaded ammo that will give a stable performance in different weather is a high goal. It takes lots of work to get past the basics of reloading and load tuning, just to get ready to do this. The stability of the DOPE and understanding of the barrel condition, means you are graduating to actual shooting.

This also means that you are looking for a "wide window" where the gun/ammo performance is predictable. Try not to get distracted by the temptation to chase a very narrow node because it shoots a temporary little group at the expense of 95% of the time.

Give yourself the best chance to learn the ropes with a tangent ogive (SMK 77) and a known stable single base extruded powder, (N140, Varget), before you take on the more sensitive tricky components. These may not give the record breaking groups, but your overall steady average will keep you happy while you learn to shoot well enough to call the difference.

Good Luck and in for the range reports.

Thank you for the long response and detail. I am gone for the next 2 1/2 weeks but will start again when I return and update.

 

[Rob01]

Kind of odd you cant get a good load. Have you tried going higher with the powder charge? I shoot the 75 ELDs in my match .223 Wylde with a 27” 7 twist barrel and I am at about 2970fps. I am loaded at .020” off the lands and at 2.470” OAL. With a longer OAL you can usually go a little higher with powder charges. Definitely be safe and go slow. I have used Varget and XBR8208.

ETA Just looked and VV lists 26.2 as their max with N140 at SAAMI length. You can probably go up some if you want.

 

[padom]

75 eld hammer in 5 different 223 wylde barrels all 26" on my tl3 with both Varget and h4895...

Mullerworks 26" 1-8

H4895 ocw

https://imgur.com/GaywvIi

Varget ocw

https://imgur.com/0IBRjkO

 

[RegionRat]

@padom , curious about what caused all the reverse holes in your target papers? It looks like something was splashing back at the target?

Did you happen to look below the 24.2 gr load on your Varget test?

 

[DGP4]

I'd try a slower burning powder, that is what worked for me with 77 gr. SMKs and Nosler RDFs.

 

[Clancy]

You didn’t say how often you’re cleaning?

Check your firing pin fall. Should be about .205.

I’d load 20 of them up with a medium charge and shoot 10 with that scope and 10 with another scope. Could very easily be the scope.

Is the rifle bedded?

 

[Rob01]

I'd try a slower burning powder, that is what worked for me with 77 gr. SMKs and Nosler RDFs.

Like what? And what velocities are you getting? N140 is a good burn rate for the 75s. Similar to Varget which is an excellent powder for .223.

 

[padom]

@padom , curious about what caused all the reverse holes in your target papers? It looks like something was splashing back at the target?

Did you happen to look below the 24.2 gr load on your Varget test?

The range I shot that target on has AR500 steel angled backstops into ground sand pits. Get shrapnel blown back into target when bullet hits the steel backstop

I have tested below 24.2gr varget but not with this barrel. I can post up that data

 

[DGP4]

Like what? And what velocities are you getting? N140 is a good burn rate for the 75s. Similar to Varget which is an excellent powder for .223.

24.2 grains of BLC-2 gives me 2740 fps and consistent .28-.32 5-shot groups @100 yards. YMMV

 

[Rob01]

24.2 grains of BLC-2 gives me 2740 fps and consistent .28-.32 5-shot groups @100 yards. YMMV

Yeah that’s some slow velocities. About 200fps slower than what I get with similar accuracy. I’m going to stick with that Varget burn rate area.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

I have had more luck with the 75g Hornady Match, than the ELD-M. I'm running 24.2 Varget and Federal Gold primer ( cos I haven't got BR4's). In the past I used A-max, but the ELD_M were not happy in my rifle.

 

[padom]

I have had more luck with the 75g Hornady Match, than the ELD-M. I'm running 24.2 Varget and Federal Gold primer ( cos I haven't got BR4's). In the past I used A-max, but the ELD_M were not happy in my rifle.

I actually shoot 80 Amax heavily 2900.. 100fps slower than the 75 eld @ 3000..

I bought up all those 600ct 80 Amax boxes when they were being discontinued and still have 3000-4000

 

[jelenko]

don't get distracted when folks invoke parts of BR concepts into the type of shooting where ammo is preloaded.

!!