Primers not going off?

[fguffey]

Savage Shooter 86, I received a phone call from a firing range, seems a shooter purchased a new rifle with 2 boxes of 30/06 ammo. The shooter had 5 fail to fire out of the first 20 rounds. All shooters at the range with 30/06 rifles had a go at the failed to fire rounds' a good guess would be each round got hit 6 times in three different rifles. What did I do? I told them to call Remington and the number was on the box. That afternoon the 15 fired cases and the 5 failed to fire show up here. I pulled the 5 fail to fire rounds down and measure all of the components and dimensions; I was impressed and then I removed the primers, the primers had been crushed, I then installed the primers back into the cases they were removed from, after installing the primers I chambered each case in one of my M1917s; that would be the rifle with killer firing pins, I busted each primer one after the other. It had to be a miracle because the case did not shorten between the shoulder of the case and case head. I checked all 20 cases with a home made chamber gage, Wilson case gage and a gage made from a take off barrel. I was impressed with the chamber of the new rifle' because? The cases fit my chamber gage with no added protrusion and the cases seated with slight thump pressure.

The shooter/reloader/builder that brought the ammo over went home and did a search for the tools we used.

F. Guffey

 

[savageshooter86]

No one mentioned lubricating the firing pin assembly shroud or cocking piece. This is the area with the most friction in the assembly. Tony Boyer's book shows modifying the shroud to reduce friction. The cocking piece on my Rem 700 shows at least three shiny locations from rubbing on the shroud. When the rifle is cocked you can put a few drops of oil on the protruding part of the cocking piece. Pulling the trigger carries the oil inside. With the bolt out you can lube other areas on the cocking piece. Please don't tell me oil attracts dirt. You are supposed to keep things clean.

I've read and been told to keep spring and pin and inside bolt body dry. As oil or lube weakens the energy delivered to primer too

 

[T-shooter]

I've read and been told to keep spring and pin and inside bolt body dry. As oil or lube weakens the energy delivered to primer too

I would think friction would reduce the firing pin energy more. A free floating pin in an AR, especially subject to gases, shouldn't have it. But a bolt action is very clean and light coating of thin oil (not grease) would probably be a good thing. I believe in lubing just about everything. If the spring can't overcome a trace amount on the surface, then the spring needs to be replaced. Also noticed your pin is wearing more on one side, probably from a side loading. Texas10 had a solution in this post. And I would suggest polishing the firing pin with a final finish of 1500-2000 grit sandpaper. I remember my old Savage 30-06 (no longer own) had more wear on one side of the firing pin. Polished it, lubed, and put in a step stronger spring. Never had any more trouble out of it.

 

[Homerange]

I've read and been told to keep spring and pin and inside bolt body dry. As oil or lube weakens the energy delivered to primer too

Too much oil WILL cause hydraulicing problems, yes. Dry is not a good idea.

 

[Webster]

I would think friction would reduce the firing pin energy more. A free floating pin in an AR, especially subject to gases, shouldn't have it. But a bolt action is very clean and light coating of thin oil (not grease) would probably be a good thing. I believe in lubing just about everything. If the spring can't overcome a trace amount on the surface, then the spring needs to be replaced. Also noticed your pin is wearing more on one side, probably from a side loading. Texas10 had a solution in this post. And I would suggest polishing the firing pin with a final finish of 1500-2000 grit sandpaper. I remember my old Savage 30-06 (no longer own) had more wear on one side of the firing pin. Polished it, lubed, and put in a step stronger spring. Never had any more trouble out of it.

I worked in R&D for a large petroleum Co. I cannot think of any situation where oil would significantly increase friction. It should reduce it. Oil on the spring. The spring diameter is smaller than the bore it fits in.

I recently bought a new Rem 700. The owners manual describes how to oil the trigger mechanism. It also states to disassemble the bolt assembly, clean with solvent and a soft rag and give everything a light coat of oil.

I have a Rem 700 BDL bought in 1969. Three barrels on it. Probably 20,000 shots. The firing pin and spring don't have any shiny rub marks. The only part of the firing pin assembly that shows rubbing wear are the shroud and cocking. piece. The spring pressure is designed with more than the minimum to work 100% of the time. Also firing pin protrusion is in the area of 0.055 - 0.065". It can never be to short.

Apparently no-one believes me that I cured my FTF problem by properly adjusting my priming tool.

Nice article comparing primers. By the USAF Academy.

http://www.btgresearch.org/High-speed measurement of rifle primer blast waves.pdf


I'll try to find the article about how they relate firing pin strike force to the % of primers that go off.

 

[dmoran]

@savageshooter86
The only place I use any lubrication on a firing pin assembly or advise to is: put grease on the threads of the shroud. The rest of the assembly I keep clean and dry (same for the internal portion of the bolt).

When in doubt, replace the firing-pin spring (or if its been a while), there cheap.
Donovan

 

[T-shooter]

I worked in R&D for a large petroleum Co. I cannot think of any situation where oil would significantly increase friction. It should reduce it. Oil on the spring. The spring diameter is smaller than the bore it fits in.

I recently bought a new Rem 700. The owners manual describes how to oil the trigger mechanism. It also states to disassemble the bolt assembly, clean with a soft rag and give everything a light coat of oil.

I have a Rem 700 BDL bought in 1969. Three barrels on it. Probably 20,000 shots. The firing pin and spring don't have any shiny rub marks. The only part of the firing pin assembly that shows rubbing wear are the shroud and cocking. piece. The spring pressure is designed with more than the minimum to work 100% of the time. Also firing pin protrusion is in the area of 0.055 - 0.065". It can never be to short.

Apparently no-one believes me that I cured my FTF problem by properly adjusting my priming tool.

Nice article comparing primers. By the USAF Academy.

http://www.btgresearch.org/High-speed measurement of rifle primer blast waves.pdf


I'll try to find the article about how they relate firing pin strike force to the % of primers that go off.

I agree. The only time I've seen any issues with lubricant is something like an AR firing pin that does get a certain amount of burnt residue around it and will collect in the oil. Another problem I had (live and learn) was on the firing pin of my Taurus PT111 pistol. The firing pin is hollow and about 1/4" diameter and the spring is tiny and fits inside the pin housing. The firing pin is round and has a lot of surface area for it's size. Looks kind of flattened in the picture. I used a light grease and the surface tension slowed the pin down enough to cause light strikes. Now I use grease on the spring inside (where there is pressure and friction where the spring rubs) and a very light oil on the outside, no more problems.

 

[Outrider27]

I only worry about lube in the firing pin/firing pin spring area in very cold weather, but there are a number of highly effective "dry" lubes out there ("dry" in quotes because some of them use alcohol or other highly volatile carriers; they go on wet and flash dry), so it is possible to have the best of both worlds with no hydraulic or cold weather viscosity problems.

 

[Joe Wade]

Just one more thing to check. On a Savage firing pin, the nut at the front adjust the pin protrusion, and it sounds like you have enough. The rear nut will adjust total firing pin fall. By tightening the rear nut (shortening the overall length of firing pin assembly), you will increase the firing pin fall and may solve your fail to fire the thicker CCI BR and 450 Magnum primers. This change in length will effect your bolt timing and create a harder lift, no free lunch. Or you can test Federal GM primers with thinner cup.

Good luck

 

[ebb]

The caution on using oil on the firing pin is after a long time the oil or grease will dry out and get stiff and eventually will get hard. If cleaned and relubed it wont be a problem.

 

[savageshooter86]

Well think issue is resolved I hope. No issues today at range. I ended up changing spring and firing pin. Protruded firing pin little more. And seated primers only until I felt them touch. So out of all that something fixed it

 

[Webster]

The caution on using oil on the firing pin is after a long time the oil or grease will dry out and get stiff and eventually will get hard. If cleaned and relubed it wont be a problem.

Oil doesn't dry out. Remington recommends it.

 

[spife7980]

Right before I screw it all back into the bolt body I just give it a quick light wipe with the oil rag from my cleaning kit just as a rust preventative, not really enough for "lubrication"

 

[CharlieNC]

You're on the right track. Savages are notorious for firing pin protrusion wandering out of spec, and spring weakening. Also be sure the length of the compressed spring is correct when adjusting protrusion. I've seen this issue on mine and fellow shooters as well. As a related item cratering can be corrected with a PTG bolt head, but head space must be adjusted too.

 

[fguffey]

head space must be adjusted too.

http://www.lewilson.com/newproducts.html

Now that cases have head space a reloader can increase the head space on the case to off set the length of the chamber.
http://www.lewilson.com/newproducts.html

The case depth micrometer for $110.00, it is a fit all gage tool. And they have managed to push the shoulder back with a die that has full body support. I wonder? Did Wilson hire a reloaders to write the description; or is this about 'it does not matter because everyone knows what they are talking about'?

F. Guffey

 

[Webster]

http://www.lewilson.com/newproducts.html

Now that cases have head space a reloader can increase the head space on the case to off set the length of the chamber.
http://www.lewilson.com/newproducts.html

The case depth micrometer for $110.00, it is a fit all gage tool. And they have managed to push the shoulder back with a die that has full body support. I wonder? Did Wilson hire a reloaders to write the description; or is this about 'it does not matter because everyone knows what they are talking about'?

F. Guffey

I made good reloads for 45 years without a head space gauge. No problems.

 

[BoydAllen]

I made good reloads for 45 years without a head space gauge. No problems.

I don't doubt that at all, but the advice to get and use a gauge is IMO correct. This is why, not all who read this are you, with your experience and skills. Many are at this moment following the incorrect advice that came with their dies to turn the die down till it touches the shell holder, and then turn it well past that before locking it down> in terms of what we are trying to do for accuracy, and certainly in many cases case life, those are essentially defective, oversimplified instructions. On your point, 20 years ago a friend told me the same thing. I challenged him to set, unset, and reset a FL die several times, and bring an example case for each setting to be checked with my then relatively new, Stoney Point (now sold by Hornady) headspace gauge. He did, and when I checked them, they were all over the place. He then went home and made a checker similar to the one that Lynwood Harell furnishes with his dies. The good think about our hobbies is that we get to decide how we want to handle various details.

 

[hogan]

Ten years ago, I got a 1000 carton of CCI 400 and loaded a bunch of .454casull. When got around to (attempting) firing these ctgs, about 40% failed to ignite, many after more than 3 strikes. This was common in 2 different Ruger Super Redhawk revolvers. Never a problem in either before.

CCI was terrible to deal with. Their tech guy blamed my guns, my brass (brand new Starline), and anything else could dream up to avoid the conclusion that the primers were no good. He finally told me CCI would replace the primers, send me new carton and pickup the old; never followed-through on that, twice.... I have NOT bought a CCI primer, or anything else CCI since.

Yeah, firing pin strike might be driving the case deeper into chamber, so no anvil movement thus, no ignition. I own a Starrett depth mic, and all my Starline cases were uniform and excellent in terms of primer pocket depth. The primers were seated several thousandths below the case head. Some of the primers would fire after 4-5 strikes. Finally just pulled all the bullets and deprimed the brass.

Much of what I read in post #1 sounds similar to my experience. Good primer seat, good chamber sizing etc etc.
I would chalk this up to experience and move onto another brand of primer.

 

[fguffey]

Yeah, firing pin strike might be driving the case deeper into chamber,

I have firing pins that crush the primer before the case, powder and bullet knows their little buddy has been destroyed.

F. Guffey

 

[Webster]

I've read and been told to keep spring and pin and inside bolt body dry. As oil or lube weakens the energy delivered to primer too

The spring and firing pin don't contact anything to cause friction. The only contact friction is the firing pin going thru the opening in the bolt face. Again the most friction is the cocking piece sliding thru the shroud.