Primary objective of neck turning

[butchlambert]

- Currently shooting off the bench with leather bags and front tripod. I will be using a Harris bipod eventually for hunting, potentially opening another can of worms.
- HS precision fiberglass stock with a full aluminum bedding block. Have not epoxy bedded it anywhere.
- “Trigger job”, I wish I could tell you. It’s one of the better old factory Triggers. Paid the gunsmith for a “trigger job” back before I really knew anything, he may have just turned the screws, maybe a timney would be worth considering.
- No intentions of shooting past 600 but still want to maintain best precision possible to that point. I have access to a 300 yd range and shoot there fairly often.
- 1 in 11 with 168 A-max
- Burris XTR II 5-25
- powder scale is frankford arsenal Intellidropper, maybe not the greatest but I have been impressed with it so far. Considering an old school balance type.
- Redding Fl sizing die and Redding seater. I just got the competition shellholders to set shoulder back .002. Carbide sizing buttons and micrometer seaters are on their way as well.
- Remington brass currently but have a box of Lapua when ready.
- Have WLR and CCI LRP primers but the winchesters are in quarantine right now. I got a bad batch and their customer service is worse than their components. May share that story in a new thread.
- Case prep is wet tumble with steel pins, resize with one shot or the Hornady paste, primer pocket cleaning tool, trim to length and deburr the mouth. Might start brushing inside of case neck as well, overlooked that all these years.

If you really shoot consistent 1/4" groups with your listed equip, I wouldn't look further. I don't think better accuracy is possible with your rifle and equip.

 

[Slowburn]

Trimming. When a case is fired the brass grows, how much depends on mfg, caliber, etc. Take a piece of your virgin lapua brass and put it in your die box, this will be your "standard" for comparisons etc. You might measure some of your fired Remington brass and note differences in their lengths and to the standard.

Annealing. As a case is fired and sized multiple times the brass can become in layman terms 'work hardened' and 'spring back'. What can happen is the shoulders don't stay 'bumped', your neck tension suffers and case life may shortened. How often this may or may not need to be done will be revealed by your own brass.

I like the idea of saving a virgin Lapua brass in the die box for reference, will definitely adopt that idea.
I have been trimming my cases to the reloading manual “trim to“ length every other firing, might do that every firing going forward.

 

[Slowburn]

Annealing has been mentioned now a few times and I will say that is the one concept that im more apprehensive about than the neck sizing! I plan to try it but it’s tough adopting a new process like that where you don’t have a result that can be measured to a spec. There are so many conflicting theories on how it should be done and how precise of a process must be used. One guy says just use a torch and a drill socket or you’re a sucker, the next says don’t even attempt it unless you have a $1,500 amp machine. I see people burning the crap out of their brass while others are basically just warming it up. It’s enough to make you laugh. That said, I bought some tempilaq and I’m going to try and do a few old cases by hand to see how they hold up and what affect it has at the chrony/ on paper.

 

[457ciSBC]

Annealing has been mentioned now a few times and I will say that is the one concept that im more apprehensive about than the neck sizing! I plan to try it but it’s tough adopting a new process like that where you don’t have a result that can be measured to a spec. There are so many conflicting theories on how it should be done and how precise of a process must be used. One guy says just use a torch and a drill socket or you’re a sucker, the next says don’t even attempt it unless you have a $1,500 amp machine. I see people burning the crap out of their brass while others are basically just warming it up. It’s enough to make you laugh. That said, I bought some tempilaq and I’m going to try and do a few old cases by hand to see how they hold up and what affect it has at the chrony/ on paper.

Not afraid to admit that I am still a Luddite when it comes to brass annealing. I have been using this method approaching 25 years. Back in 08’ I started on a fancy dual head contraption, platter, stepper motor, controller and just lost interest.

 

[mj2evans]

The brass you start with matters. I have a Shilen barrel in 308W that showed it preferred turned brass (not a tight neck). Now this is LC LR brass and I just basically cleaned up the necks, not much taken off. When I do do 20 cases 2 might show nothing removed on one side (those get trashed). Not sure if its the turning or culling that is actually showing positive results but it works. I assume if I started with match grade (Lapua) brass I wouldn't need to do this.

I even tried turning Greek HXP 30-06 brass for a factory rifle and it showed improved consistency. Again, I think buying better brass would help but it was a fun exercise.

 

[David Christian]

Hi Everyone, This is actually my first post on the forum. I have been reloading for quite a few years, mainly for hunting, but recently I am enjoying loading for more precision beyond what I have been. I have not yet attempted neck turning and I’m wondering if thats something worthwhile for me to explore.

Is slight variation in the thickness of the neck going to have a significant impact on neck tension? And what amount of thickness variation is worth addressing? Maybe most importantly, is this just about controlling neck tension or am I missing the point?

In terms of my rifle, shooting ability etc: I’m just shooting a model 700 .308 I had fitted with a shilen barrel. I had the action lapped and trued, trigger job etc. I have been able to shoot under 1/4” with it repeatedly under ideal conditions. I’m terms of accuracy, that’s actually all I am hoping for. However, I would like to do more with case prep, sorting, precision measurement, etc in order to prevent occasional non-shooter related “fliers” and also to recognize and address issues that arise with brass as it ages.

Hi @Slowburn, I don't think it has been mentioned yet, so I will opine. I went down the neck turning rabbit hole in the past, yet no longer turn necks and am actually seeing better results. That is a different story for another time. Related to what you are trying to solve for "neck tension" for more precision, I thought I would suggest you consider playing around with different size gage pins/mandrels before seating your bullets.

In my experience, experimenting with different gage pins (.3080, .3075, .3070, .3065) might offer you an easier way to fine tune the consistency of your neck tension without turning your brass.

 

[Webster]

Hi Everyone, This is actually my first post on the forum. I have been reloading for quite a few years, mainly for hunting, but recently I am enjoying loading for more precision beyond what I have been. I have not yet attempted neck turning and I’m wondering if thats something worthwhile for me to explore.

Is slight variation in the thickness of the neck going to have a significant impact on neck tension? And what amount of thickness variation is worth addressing? Maybe most importantly, is this just about controlling neck tension or am I missing the point?

In terms of my rifle, shooting ability etc: I’m just shooting a model 700 .308 I had fitted with a shilen barrel. I had the action lapped and trued, trigger job etc. I have been able to shoot under 1/4” with it repeatedly under ideal conditions. I’m terms of accuracy, that’s actually all I am hoping for. However, I would like to do more with case prep, sorting, precision measurement, etc in order to prevent occasional non-shooter related “fliers” and also to recognize and address issues that arise with brass as it ages.

It doesn't get any better than 1/4" with a hunting rifle. You are very lucky.

 

[Slowburn]

Hi @Slowburn, I don't think it has been mentioned yet, so I will opine. I went down the neck turning rabbit hole in the past, yet no longer turn necks and am actually seeing better results. That is a different story for another time. Related to what you are trying to solve for "neck tension" for more precision, I thought I would suggest you consider playing around with different size gage pins/mandrels before seating your bullets.

In my experience, experimenting with different gage pins (.3080, .3075, .3070, .3065) might offer you an easier way to fine tune the consistency of your neck tension without turning your brass.

Thanks, I actually looked into this recently, or at least a version of it. The 21st Century die with expander mandrels (a set of maybe 3 progressively undersized mandrels). From the research I have done this appears to offer all the benefits of the neck bushing process with less of the pitfalls (brass donut,etc). I backed down from actually ordering them because I started to wonder if I was getting ahead of myself and trying to adopt “benchrest level” methods that we’re above my equipment, skill and accuracy goals. This may still be the case.

Related to these mandrel dies, gage pins there are a couple things I would like know more about :
1) Do you have an understanding of why this is superior to simply using a set of progressively undersized expander balls to customize internal neck diameter? Seems like a cheaper and easier solution if someone makes them (haven’t seen them yet tho). Only real difference seems to be the direction of movement- pushing down vs pulling up with an expander ball.
2) is the gage pin idea just a generic version of the Sinclair or 21st century brand mandrel and die concept? It sounds like in any case it would give you more size options anyway. how are you holding the gage pins? Is there a particular die that will hold them?

 

[Slowburn]

If you really shoot consistent 1/4" groups with your listed equip, I wouldn't look further. I don't think better accuracy is possible with your rifle and equip.

I agree, I should have clarified I’m not really looking to improve accuracy on this particular rifle. I got very lucky for the money I invested in it. I just want to maintain consistency with the brass and keep it uniform. I also want to have the tools to diagnose and resolve issues with components for other rifles. I have a couple of others that I experience more accuracy problems and fliers with and would like to apply some of these processes to loading for those.
Also, since I made the 1/4” group claim about this particular gun I feel obligated to post a target. I managed to dig one up from the load development process. It wasn’t a very fast one but an accurate one.

 

[chop house]

Annealing has been mentioned now a few times and I will say that is the one concept that im more apprehensive about than the neck sizing! I plan to try it but it’s tough adopting a new process like that where you don’t have a result that can be measured to a spec.

i guess your 'spec' would be side by side comparison targets and/or chrono data. maybe 10 shot round robin to one bull each? on your lot of annealed brass, set aside any jdfr's (just didn't feel right) found during bullet seating. shoot them on a third bull as a sort of 'control'. i have ruined more brass by neck turning than by annealing by hand... for sure.

 

[David Christian]

Thanks, I actually looked into this recently, or at least a version of it. The 21st Century die with expander mandrels (a set of maybe 3 progressively undersized mandrels). From the research I have done this appears to offer all the benefits of the neck bushing process with less of the pitfalls (brass donut,etc). I backed down from actually ordering them because I started to wonder if I was getting ahead of myself and trying to adopt “benchrest level” methods that we’re above my equipment, skill and accuracy goals. This may still be the case.

Related to these mandrel dies, gage pins there are a couple things I would like know more about :
1) Do you have an understanding of why this is superior to simply using a set of progressively undersized expander balls to customize internal neck diameter? Seems like a cheaper and easier solution if someone makes them (haven’t seen them yet tho). Only real difference seems to be the direction of movement- pushing down vs pulling up with an expander ball.
2) is the gage pin idea just a generic version of the Sinclair or 21st century brand mandrel and die concept? It sounds like in any case it would give you more size options anyway. how are you holding the gage pins? Is there a particular die that will hold them?

@Slowburn, search for “gage pins” or “neck tension” in this forum and you will find a dozen educational threads to include several from me.

Gage pins are cheap ($4 each) and can be held with a bullet puller to start with or a fancier version from Porter Precision out of Texas if you like the idea.

I don’t know about expander balls as I’ve never used them but think they would not be as consistent.

 

[Mikemci]

First question, does a bullet drop into a fired case, using gravity only?

 

[Slowburn]

First question, does a bullet drop into a fired case, using gravity only?

No, They dont drop freely into the case for this rifle. I did the same check on some brass from another rifle, a factory barreled .30-06 and they fell right in.

 

[Mikemci]

Then you should benefit from a skim turn.

 

[Slowburn]

Then you should benefit from a skim turn.

This makes sense in hindsight, never would have thought to do this. This is a good example why of I am interested to learn how to neck turn regardless of its impact on accuracy for this rifle. Maybe I’m anticipating something which will never occur but I wonder how much space there is between the case neck and chamber after firing. Presumably there is enough space and some spring back or the case would not extract easily and I would see pressure signs. But over the long haul, would I expect the neck will become thicker and possibly need to be turned down just to ensure a safe fit?

 

[Slowburn]

Also wanted to see if anyone has any experience with this option from Hornady. Seems like it would be easier than a small hand held type for about the same cost but maybe that’s not the case.

 

[dkhunt14]

I just read all the threads and didnt see one of the things I feel neckturning does. I think it centers the bullet in the case and I feel that's important, especially for long range shooting. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

I like the mandrels alot better then using a expander in a die. I feel it does a way better job of controlling and evening out bullet tensions. The gage pins are cheap and they are ground, so they are pretty slick. Matt

 

[Steve Blair]

I agree with you completely.
All range flags (15' red and yellow)I have seen, lie. That may be their only mission in life, who knows? I think figuring out which one lies the least is the hard part. With that said, my personal wind flags lie less frequently and HAVE helped a bunch...... even at 600 yards.
CW

I have always found range flags and mirage reliable. The shooter must understand the range and what flag direction and lift means. I also have three Rick Graham flat top ball wind flags with surveyor's tape streamers. They are great for load development.

 

[skeeljc]

Also wanted to see if anyone has any experience with this option from Hornady. Seems like it would be easier than a small hand held type for about the same cost but maybe that’s not the case.

The goal of neck turning is to achieve UNIFORM neck thickness. You are cutting the neck with reference to the mandrel. Having the cutter AND the case held rigidly is not going to help the process. Holding the turner in your hand lets it do its work without external influences. Proper neck alignment is done with the sizing die.