Pricing to chamber barrel and install

[Sandstorm]

Everything on this forum is involved and opinionated, but thats what you get for free advise.
You do get the best free advice that I know of.
Disclaimer ( By the best gunsmiths that I Know of )

but didn't expect this topic to be this involved. I was just seeking advice and opinions.

 

[LVLAaron]

For what it's worth... "Gunsmith" is kind of like "doctor" - What kind of doctor? GP? Specialist? Dentist? Chiropractor? I don't want my chiropractor doing my root canal.

Alex can do anything with a rifle action... but he's probably not the best guy to fit a 1911 barrel (if you are, apologies, just an example)

On that topic. I'd never give a barrel and a reamer to a machinist.

 

[AlNyhus]

I can identify with a lot of this. While I'm adequately proficient and comfortable doing lathe and mill work, I don't chamber my own barrels. In the dozen or so years that Stan Ware mentored me, he did all the barrel work....that was our 'deal'. And it worked out well. When it came to my own barrels, Stan coached me through indicating the breech and muzzles. I'd get it set up and then he'd check it, correct it as needed and then tell me to get lost when he put the chamber and throat in. "Go find something useful to do when I'm doing this, Nyhus. The dog needs an hour long walk." One day, he handed me an old brace and bit and said that's about were my skill level was. I turned the tables on him by grabbing a barrel, sticking it in the vise and asking him for a reamer. He got the last laugh by sticking a half round bastard file between my teeth and snapping this pic to hang in the shop.

Stan scaled back due to health issues right about the time I was stepping away from BR in 2013 to put together a drag race operation. Stan had a lot of respect for the work he'd seen that 'Humble' Henry Rivers had done. We'd gotten to know Henry pretty well so having Henry do my barrel work was a natural fit. When I sold my race operation 7 years later and decided to return for BR competition, it was logical to have 'Humble' continue to do my barrel work. Matter of fact, there's a new one due in today from Henry.

Though he doesn't do barrels generally, Randy Robinett has also helped me out with some 'special needs' chamber work for a project. Dusty Stevens did a beautiful 6BR chamber for me in a Lilja 3 groove barrel and Mike Ezell's work on the front end for fitting his tuner to my Kreiger 30BR barrel is flawless. Lots of talented people doing really, really good work out there.

For me, it's a good balance. I confine my efforts to whittlin' stuff, stock work and generally just makin' chips or whatever else I find interesting.

 

[jackieschmidt]

If your just looking for someone to thread and install and chamber a barrel. I will take a machinist any day of the week before a gunsmith. A machinist works on a lathe everyday and know the tolerance. And can keep them by moving in .0005 or what ever he needs.

Skeetlee is very good and is one here.

As a machinist, and the owner of a fairly large Job Shop, I have always looked at doing “barrel work” as just another machine shop operation.

You study the task at hand and figure out the most efficient, and accurate way to accomplish the task within the limits of your shop’s equipment.

We do this quite often on quite a few jobs.

I do know quite a few Benchrest Shooters who do their own barrels. The reason they do them is not an issue of price, it’s an issue of time, or more to the point, convienience.

I can order a barrel on Monday, have it in my hands by Friday, chamber it and be at the Range on Sunday. It is difficult to put a price on that type of convenience.

All I have at my house is a little 13x40 lathe, the required cutting tools, reamers, and over 50 years experience In the Machinist Trade.

I am not doing “gunsmith” work. I am simply performing the various machining operations that it takes to install a barrel on an action.

Which, in the grand scheme of “Machine Shop Practice”, is really not that difficult.

 

[LVLAaron]

Al, please tell me that photo is a barrel being chambered with a bit brace.

 

[jelenko]

Al, please tell me that photo is a barrel being chambered with a bit brace.

And, I'm assuming the file is to clean out any burrs

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree that a machinist can do a very good chambering job. Like so many things, there are details that even the most skilled machinist must know before one can be expected to do the job well, but aside from that, any good machinist can do the work. A good machinist can look at a blueprint and figure out the best way to do the job to those stated specs. Problem is, most tenon prints don't call for tolerances well if at all or the value of indicating the bore to run dead nuts true. BTW, dead nuts is not a spec. Lol! Some things are less than obvious, but are critical.

I'll give an example...There's a fairly new gun mfg not real far from me building rifles. They have some very skilled machinists. The head guy called me one day to come look over a new prototype, that they had fired. Apparently the gun shot well enough as he was happy but when I looked at the fired cases, they all had bad primer cratering. I forget the number but way too much clearance between the pin and the fp hole was the issue, He mentioned that extraction was hard....It had zero primary extraction. He didn't even know it was a thing! Lol!

Bottom line, they didn't know what they didn't know, at the time. But, they were very capable of correcting those issues and they did.

Kinda scary when you think about it but all in all, for someone that had zero help prior and no real working knowledge of a bolt action rifle...they did ok, The workmanship was good but the knowledge was just not there.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Another example is unsupported case and too much chamfer there. Again, a good machinist is capable of reading from a print but not if it's not called out on the print. I've seen some scary chamfers on guns that were winning rifles. That's the stuff that scares me about "self" as a gunsmith on the match reports.

There's no such thing as perfect but there's many different degrees of f'd up.

 

[TaperPin]

For a long time I’ve seen David Tubb as a having a good grasp of marketing, which is a compliment. Is what he’s done with rifles ground breaking? Not really - rifles as accurate can be bought here any day of the week. That he can charge higher than normal prices is a testament to differentiating and branding what he has to offer.

That sounds easy and is really hard to replicate. Had he been born David Ballz, it doesn’t have the same ring to it, “I have a Ballz spring installed on this gun.” “I shoot a Ballz rifle.” He is also capitalizing on the tactical trend, because this group of long range plinkers with expensive rifles is, well, a group of long range plinkers that can afford expensive rifles. His different products over the years remind me of a product made by a client - a cute little gal with a lot of business sense - years ago she paid to have the injection mold made for a simple plastic caulking scraper, even though she knows nothing about caulking or scraping. I was very curious why. She said it‘s like a tiny investment property and only takes an hour or two of time per year, yet it makes maybe $1k a year in profit. There are better scrapers and cheaper scrapers, but just enough people buy this one that it’s extra $$ in her pocket. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had 100 products in addition to her white collar day job.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Many good points made. Also, remember "gunsmith" on the equipment is just the last guy that put a barrel on it. In many cases its not the guy that actually built the rifle. Thats why I like working with Roys stocks, he does all the work and I still get to be the "gunsmith" LOL

 

[DonkeyHote]

For what it's worth... "Gunsmith" is kind of like "doctor" - What kind of doctor? GP? Specialist? Dentist? Chiropractor? I don't want my chiropractor doing my root canal.

Alex can do anything with a rifle action... but he's probably not the best guy to fit a 1911 barrel (if you are, apologies, just an example)

On that topic. I'd never give a barrel and a reamer to a machinist.

For what its worth you do not have a very high regard of a machinist/ toolmaker.
For someone who spent decades in a manufacturing environment being a machinist/toolmaker using a reamer to achieve high tolerance details in metal is not a particularly difficult operation.

It is important to understand that most gunsmiths do rely on a machinist who is specializing, making, grinding reamers to to very high precision( hopefully)that a gunsmith uses to chamber a barrel.
So really the chamber will not be more accurate than the reamer the machinist made.

Also based on my experience prices do not always reflect the the quality of work you get.
I have barrels chambered by top gunsmiths that shoot well ( high price), I have barrel where cambering costs were lower but the barrel shoots awesome .1-.2 , I also have a factory criterion remage barrel $375.00 delivered that shoots 3 inches at 500 meters with factory Berger ammo.

Just my 2 cents....

 

[ChristianSilver]

The last bbl I had chambered and threaded for a tuner was a Bartlein in 6 Dasher for a Bat action years ago, I took shop in high school. Spent 9 years working around a bunch of machines in the oilfield. Was taught the basics, not a self taught but no formal training and teaching.

I’ve had a lathe and a mill in my shop for the last 8 years. I’ve upgraded my lathe to a PM1440 and converted my PM728 VT to CNC.
I do all my own, it’s rewarding to shoot your own work.

I’m slow at the process, take my time and pay attention to the details.

Tooling, cost of machines, test dial indicators and accessories I’m by no means coming out spending less money. It’s just rewarding and no wait time.

Still learning something new every time I do a chambering job.
I have yet to do a bbl that didn’t shoot 1/2 MOA or better.

 

[LVLAaron]

For what its worth you do not have a very high regard of a machinist/ toolmaker.
For someone who spent decades in a manufacturing environment being a machinist/toolmaker using a reamer to achieve high tolerance details in metal is not a particularly difficult operation.

It is important to understand that most gunsmiths do rely on a machinist who is specializing, making, grinding reamers to to very high precision( hopefully)that a gunsmith uses to chamber a barrel.
So really the chamber will not be more accurate than the reamer the machinist made.

Also based on my experience prices do not always reflect the the quality of work you get.
I have barrels chambered by top gunsmiths that shoot well ( high price), I have barrel where cambering costs were lower but the barrel shoots awesome .1-.2 , I also have a factory criterion remage barrel $375.00 delivered that shoots 3 inches at 500 meters with factory Berger ammo.

Just my 2 cents....

Don't take what I said in a negative way. I'm just saying I don't expect, even an experienced machinist, to talk the same language and requirements we have as shooters. I'm not saying they can't do it, or that they can't learn, or that being a machinist is a red flag.

I'm saying I wouldn't take my barrel and reamer to a machine shop and expect something as good or better than if I took it to a shooter who can run a lathe.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Pretty much sums it up

 

[ACard]

Maybe a silly question but what's an ATR barrel?

It is David Tubbs Adaptive Target Rifle barrel. The barrels he sells are not blanks but prefits for that platform.

Adaptive Target Rifle Receiver Assembly (Right hand)

david tubb; superior shooting systems; david tubbs; tubbs final finish; tubb; david tubbs final finish; david tubb's final finish; tubb precision; tubbs springs; tubb 2000; tubb final finish; dave tubbs; dtac bullets; davidtubb; dtr reticle; dtr; dynamic;

www.davidtubb.com

 

[jimmymac]

It is David Tubbs Adaptive Target Rifle barrel. The barrels he sells are not blanks but prefits for that platform.

Adaptive Target Rifle Receiver Assembly (Right hand)

david tubb; superior shooting systems; david tubbs; tubbs final finish; tubb; david tubbs final finish; david tubb's final finish; tubb precision; tubbs springs; tubb 2000; tubb final finish; dave tubbs; dtac bullets; davidtubb; dtr reticle; dtr; dynamic;

www.davidtubb.com

The price on that is ridiculous. It is truly for the man that has everything.

 

[dminn1]

For a long time I’ve seen David Tubb as a having a good grasp of marketing, which is a compliment. Is what he’s done with rifles ground breaking? Not really - rifles as accurate can be bought here any day of the week. That he can charge higher than normal prices is a testament to differentiating and branding what he has to offer.

That sounds easy and is really hard to replicate. Had he been born David Ballz, it doesn’t have the same ring to it, “I have a Ballz spring installed on this gun.” “I shoot a Ballz rifle.” He is also capitalizing on the tactical trend, because this group of long range plinkers with expensive rifles is, well, a group of long range plinkers that can afford expensive rifles. His different products over the years remind me of a product made by a client - a cute little gal with a lot of business sense - years ago she paid to have the injection mold made for a simple plastic caulking scraper, even though she knows nothing about caulking or scraping. I was very curious why. She said it‘s like a tiny investment property and only takes an hour or two of time per year, yet it makes maybe $1k a year in profit. There are better scrapers and cheaper scrapers, but just enough people buy this one that it’s extra $$ in her pocket. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had 100 products in addition to her white collar day job.

Other than the cool name there is also 11 High Power Rifle National Championships, 20 Silhouette National Championships, and six National Long-Range High Power Championships. Some in these shooting disciplines also consider the T-2K to be a somewhat groundbreaking rifle. Tends to make the marketing carry a bit more weight.

 

[ACard]

The price on that is ridiculous. It is truly for the man that has everything.

If you have not handled, shot, or seen one in person you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Before making grand sweeping statements you should do a little homework. The rifle is out of my reach but I have shot several of them at matches. There are indeed many things about the ATR that sets it above and apart from the generally accepted standard rifle.

 

[urbanrifleman]

If you have not handled, shot, or seen one in person you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Before making grand sweeping statements you should do a little homework. The rifle is out of my reach but I have shot several of them at matches. There are indeed many things about the ATR that sets it above and apart from the generally accepted standard rifle.

These people have no idea what they're talking about. No idea whatsoever. Commenting on something they didn't even know existed yesterday. But for some reason the internet has created an environment for people to comment as experts on something they've never even seen. Condem it, and then establish their condemnation as fact.

And this toxicity just continues to grow worse every single day.

Btw, no one even mentioned the ELR world records. And his son-in-law Nate setting world records. And doing it with the same ATR shooting cartridges larger than 338 Lapua in the same action.

 

[jimmymac]

If you have not handled, shot, or seen one in person you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Before making grand sweeping statements you should do a little homework. The rifle is out of my reach but I have shot several of them at matches. There are indeed many things about the ATR that sets it above and apart from the generally accepted standard rifle.

Thank God for ignorance then.
I educated myself enough to know that I don’t need to handle the gun or see it in person to determine its value to me. We frequently have guns here in the classifieds that get no play because the price point is above what people think it’s worth. If you think it priced right then power to you. Have at it. I may think you are nuts, but it’s not my money.