Press for Shoulder Bumping

[gilmillan1]

Hello,

I am looking for a good press for shoulder bumping. So far, I had been using my hornady lock and load press. I had been able to bump the shoulders. However, I have noticed that after using it for some time, the locking bushings start deforming and it gets very hard to remove the dies. I want a press just for shoulder bumping. I want to continue using my hornady press, and have a spare for bumping. what do you guys recommend?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I use my RCBS Rockchucker (RC) to bump shoulders and full size, then use my Forster Coax for de-priming and bullet seating. Could use the Forster for everything I suppose, but I like having multiple presses set up with dies. Just faster that way. The RC press makes brass with next to zero runout on the neck and shoulder for me. Not sure that all the RC presses will do the same as my current RC is the only one I've ever owned. Perhaps I'm just fortunate to have one that is perfectly straight. Not sure...

The Redding T7 sounds like it would be the ticket for both of us. I plan on having one at some point. But for now my setup works very well.

 

[Lapua40X]

... RCBS Rockchucker (RC)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[jonbearman]

In my opinion you should call Hornady and let them know you are having problems. Ask to talk to one of the techs. Those bushings shouldn't be deforming from something as simple as shoulder bumping.

 

[amlevin]

In my opinion you should call Hornady and let them know you are having problems. Ask to talk to one of the techs. Those bushings shouldn't be deforming from something as simple as shoulder bumping.

If the bushing lugs are deforming then there's definitely something wrong. I have the Hornady LNL bushing setup on both a Rock Chucker and Summit Press. The bushing lugs haven't deformed regardless of how hard I've had to pull on the handle(s).

 

[fguffey]

I want to continue using my hornady press, and have a spare for bumping. what do you guys recommend?

I have bump presses, I have presses that do not pump. I do not know a reloader that understands the difference. All of my brown presses are bump presses, I have at least 4 Rock Chuckers, none of my RC presses 'BUMP' because they are not cam over presses. I do not mind, it is OK, because if my Rock Chuckers 'bumped' and or cammed over they would not work on my Piggy Back presses. To me? That is important, I have two Piggy Back 2 presses/attachments.

MY RC presses do lock up and or go into a bind, all of my RC presses have shiney spots on the linkage caused by binding. The binding causes the ram to kick back at the bottom and forward at the top. Logic indicates to kick back at the bottom and forward at the top could only happen if the bore through the press was in the shape of an hour glass.

(With an exception) reloading forums.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Those bushings shouldn't be deforming from something as simple as shoulder bumping.

There is something that is not understood about bumping, I find it most difficult, when I bump the shoulder the case body shortens between the shoulder and case head. To prevent the case getting short I find it necessary to support the case body, and there goes the theory and allusion of shoulder bumping. When I size a case to minimum length/gull length size I use sizing dies, I adjust the die to the shell holder to control the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

Adjusting the die to the shell holder The adjustment could be off the shell holder, it could be to the shell holder and or it could mean I give the die an additional fractional turn to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

My best presses are strong presses, they have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing, there is lube and there is good lube, my good lube is a no name lube. Then there is checking to determine of the case won or the press won. I am the only one that measures the gap between the shell holder and die when deterring the winner.

Did the press win or did the case win?: If the case won the shell holder did not make it to the die. "Bump the shoulder .002"? Sounds simple.

F. Guffey

 

[loneranger04]

I recently bought the Forster coax because of the ease of full length resizing and shoulder bumping. I too like to have multiple presses set up for different functions. For rifle I prime on my Dillon 550B and neck size with a Lee collet die on the coax then seat bullets with my Redding Big Boss. I will probably use the coax in the future fore bullet seating but I doubt that I will part with the Redding press. It's a tank and makes zero runout seating bullets. It's horrible for decapping though. All the spent primers end up on the floor.

 

[BoydAllen]

If the OP is deforming press bushing metal, he is doing something wrong. Any regular reloading press can be used to bump shoulders. Sometimes we run into situations where the chamber is short relative to the die, and some modification needs to be done so that there is enough clearance to get the job done, usually taking a few thousandths off of the top of the shell holder will accomplish what is needed. Before this is done, a proper measurement needs to be taken of the shoulder to head dimension of a case that has been fired several times, loaded neck sized, until the shoulder to head dimension has reached its maximum. (Be sure to keep a light coating of bolt grease on the backs of your bolt's locking lugs when doing this, to prevent galling.) Before the measurement is taken the primer should be removed, or simply seated well below the case head. Cases that have only been fired once typically are no where near their maximum shoulder to head dimension and if one must be used as a reference to set a FL die, the die should be set so that the head to shoulder dimension is the same as it came out of the rifle after firing. This is for a bolt rifle. Semiautomatics are a different situation. The last thing that I want to mention is that the instructions that call for the shooter to screw his die in till it touches the shell holder and then turn it an additional quarter turn are pure garbage, and should not be followed. This is not to say that the Lee Collet die instructions are wrong, I am talking about FL dies. Dies need to be set using the proper tools to measure and with the proper technique. Although I have not examined the OP's press and dies, if he has metal deformation, I have a strong suspicion that he has been set up so that there is very heavy toggling at the top of the ram stroke. It almost has to be that way to move metal. Simply FL sizing cases and bumping shoulders a little could not produce that effect.

 

[JRS]

If the OP is deforming press bushing metal, he is doing something wrong. Any regular reloading press can be used to bump shoulders. Sometimes we run into situations where the chamber is short relative to the die, and some modification needs to be done so that there is enough clearance to get the job done, usually taking a few thousandths off of the top of the shell holder will accomplish what is needed. Before this is done, a proper measurement needs to be taken of the shoulder to head dimension of a case that has been fired several times, loaded neck sized, until the shoulder to head dimension has reached its maximum. (Be sure to keep a light coating of bolt grease on the backs of your bolt's locking lugs when doing this, to prevent galling.) Before the measurement is taken the primer should be removed, or simply seated well below the case head. Cases that have only been fired once typically are no where near their maximum shoulder to head dimension and if one must be used as a reference to set a FL die, the die should be set so that the head to shoulder dimension is the same as it came out of the rifle after firing. This is for a bolt rifle. Semiautomatics are a different situation. The last thing that I want to mention is that the instructions that call for the shooter to screw his die in till it touches the shell holder and then turn it an additional quarter turn are pure garbage, and should not be followed. This is not to say that the Lee Collet die instructions are wrong, I am talking about FL dies. Dies need to be set using the proper tools to measure and with the proper technique. Although I have not examined the OP's press and dies, if he has metal deformation, I have a strong suspicion that he has been set up so that there is very heavy toggling at the top of the ram stroke. It almost has to be that way to move metal. Simply FL sizing cases and bumping shoulders a little could not produce that effect.

You can't be serious Boyd : Do you honestly believe the press is going to distort the die ring, base of the die itself, or the shell holder ??? Over analyzing has proven to be your downfall. The press certainly isn't going to allow heavy toggling

 

[BoydAllen]

I was going with the information that the OP gave us, and my experience with how some have mistakenly adjusted their dies. If the die is screwed in too far, the press will most certainly toggle. In his post he wrote of the lock-n-load bushings deforming. I have converted my Rockchucker to this system and use the bushings all the time. I have also owned a Hornady press like his. He made no mention of distorting the die, shell holder, or lock ring. Perhaps you need to take better aim, before you fire, and read a little more carefully.

 

[gilmillan1]

I bump the shoulders 2 thousands but in order to achieve this, i need to screw the die way too much. If i screw the die so that it barely touches the shell holder, it will not bump the shoulder. I have redding full lenght sizing die with neck bushings. The only way to achieve the intended results, i have to screw the die a bit further down.

 

[BoydAllen]

Now, tell us what you use as a reference for your bumping...once fired brass? If you are and you are loading for a bolt action, then you are bumping cases to a measurement that is shorter than it should be, because it takes more than one firing, with a reasonably stout load, with neck sized brass, for a case to hit its maximum shoulder to head dimension. Typical once fired brass will be more than a thousandth short of max. In that case, if you set your die so that the shoulder is at the same place that it was after its first firing, and the body diameter has been reduced, the case will chamber just fine. If you are working with brass that is at it maximum dimension, shoulder to head, the answer is not to abuse your press, but to take a few thousandths off of the top of your shell holder so that shoulders can be bumped without toggling the press. What sort of rifle are you shooting? Is the barrel factory installed?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Definitely sounds like you need to grind down your shell holder to get the die bumping the shoulder back further. I've had to do that in the past for rifles that seemed to have a bit of a short chamber and it works great. I just ground the shell holder down 10-15 thou on my grinder so that it gave enough clearance to bump the shoulder further, but also prevented the press from camming over on the die. Just grind and check with calipers every so often until you take off the desired amount. Really easy fix.

 

[fguffey]

I just ground the shell holder down 10-15 thou on my grinder so that it gave enough clearance to bump the shoulder further, but also prevented the press from camming over on the die. Just grind and check with calipers every so often until you take off the desired amount. Really easy fix

.010" to .015"? I would determine the length of the chamber first from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. I would then determine the ability of the die and shell holder to return the case to minimum length/full length size. I form cases for short chambers by raising the case head off of the deck of the shell holder, with RCBS shell holders that can be .012". That amounts to .017" when a reloader considers the die and shell holder is designed to size a case to minimum length. for the 30/06 that is .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

I never assume a reloader is sizing cases with normal resistance to sizing. A case that is worked hardened has more resistance to sizing than a once fired case. A case can have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. When that happens the press flexes.

HOW MUCH FLEX? It is possible for a reloader to measure the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die. The gap will indicate the amount of the case that did not get sized. A reloader can also remove the die with the case before lowering the ram. After removing the die with case the reloader can measure the protruding case head. With a deck height of .125" the case should protrude .125" in the perfect world.

I have dies that belonged to reloaders that mindlessly ground the bottom of the die, all I am required to do is determine how much they ground off, then make adjustments.

F. Guffey

 

[Erik Cortina]

Sounds like the shell holder is contacting the bottom of the die very firmly. That will deform the lugs on his die sleeve for sure. Address that issue and you will be fine.

 

[BoydAllen]

Frank,
I think that we can be sure that he has his die set so that his press is toggling quite heavily, shell holder against die, because he has deformed the Lock-n-Load die adapter in the process. I mentioned a couple of things, making sure that his reference for determining bump was correct, and correcting the interference if the reference was correct by modifying the part that was least expensive, the shell holder. If one is going to create clearance so that parts do not interfere with the process, then the amount is not really critical, as long as the part is not weakened. I agree with you that grinding on dies is not desirable, for more than one reason.
Boyd

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I just ground the shell holder down 10-15 thou on my grinder so that it gave enough clearance to bump the shoulder further, but also prevented the press from camming over on the die. Just grind and check with calipers every so often until you take off the desired amount. Really easy fix

.010" to .015"? I would determine the length of the chamber first from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. I would then determine the ability of the die and shell holder to return the case to minimum length/full length size. I form cases for short chambers by raising the case head off of the deck of the shell holder, with RCBS shell holders that can be .012". That amounts to .017" when a reloader considers the die and shell holder is designed to size a case to minimum length. for the 30/06 that is .005" shorter than a go-gage length chamber.

I never assume a reloader is sizing cases with normal resistance to sizing. A case that is worked hardened has more resistance to sizing than a once fired case. A case can have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. When that happens the press flexes.

HOW MUCH FLEX? It is possible for a reloader to measure the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die. The gap will indicate the amount of the case that did not get sized. A reloader can also remove the die with the case before lowering the ram. After removing the die with case the reloader can measure the protruding case head. With a deck height of .125" the case should protrude .125" in the perfect world.

I have dies that belonged to reloaders that mindlessly ground the bottom of the die, all I am required to do is determine how much they ground off, then make adjustments.

F. Guffey

Ummm....way overthinking it. DO NOT grind the dies. That is foolish.

OP, the process is not complicated. You just grind your shell holder then size the brass to desired headspace...Simple. Don't let some folks make you think it's some super complicated problem to overcome with careful calculations. It's a very simple and easy fix.

 

[fguffey]

It has nothing to do with being afraid to get involved but after JRS got involved I could not see how this would end well. I do not find it necessary to wreck a press and or parts just to determine if a shell holder and die has the ability to return a case back to minimum length/full length size.

Then there is that part where a reloader determines the ability of the press to overcome resistance and the case's ability to resist sizing. A few years ago I took two 300 Winchester Magnum chambered rifles to the range, both rifles were new. Cases fired in one rifle was almost impossible to size, cases fire in the other rifle would chamber without resistance to bolt closing in the other.

I ask Winchester to fix the rifle or make me a set of dies for their chamber. They suggested I shoot it more ??? We had words.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Ummm....it's not that complicated. You just grind your shell holder then size the brass to desired headspace...Simple

You are correct, "You just grind your shell holder", no I determine how much grinding is necessary and I do not have head space on the case, I measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

Then again there is that part where the case whips the press, when the case whips the press I find it makes more sense to fix the problem by getting another case, a case with less resistance to sizing and or a better lube.

F. Guffey