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Predicting transonic stability?

Laurie, did you ever shoot Lapua's D46 .3093" diameter 185-gr. FMJRB match bullets in 30 caliber barrels?

I had half a box of them that I acquired when my local gunshop moved premises 12 or so years back and the staff found all sorts of old stuff lurking in cupboards and odd hidey-holes. (Vihtavuori SR primers anyone ??!) I loaded them in something some years later - would have to have been a 308 Win something, most likely a Howa 1500 Stainless Varminter - and although I had no pressure problems, memory says they didn't shoot any better or worse than todays' usual size D46s. If that was in the Howa, that is to say they didn't shoot great for that rifle didn't like heavy bullets much.
 
Those Lap's often had bullets from 3 or 4 different bullet making machines. Evidenced by that many different profiles in a 50X optical comparator. Good proof different ogive forming dies were used.

Some lots back in the late 60's and early 70's had bad bullets unbalanced enough to shoot 8's in prone matches while others stayed in the 10 ring. A few in every box was the standard.
 
Yep..... a 2-1/2 year old thread (maybe you missed that aspect).

Bryan has moved this subject on a bit since 2015 as can be seen in his latest 'Modern Advancements' books with mentions of tests using super-twists for ELR shooting. Since this thread started up, the whole issue of the relationships between stability, rotational rate, bullet shape has been explored further with the King of Two Miles challenge and other ELR exploits having come along.

That raises questions (in my mind at any rate) that whilst there may be benefits to stability in trans / sub-sonic flight modes from some or all of these changes what effects do they have on more 'normal' long-range shooting, with less exotic cartridges / bullets than seen in KO2M etc - that is up 1,200 yards or so? Are there benefits waiting for us F-Class and FTR shooters who don't exceed 1,000 yard distances? Or are such changes precision neutral at these shorter distances? Or are they of benefit at ELR only and have downsides at distances where the bullet is still comfortably supersonic?

I'm still intrigued as to how come the old 155gn Sierra MK, the 2155 version works so well at 1,000 yards in GB 'Target Rifle'. At 2,925 fps MV with an average 2.14 G7 BC, it cannot stay above transonic speeds at this distance. At 1,000 yards it's predicted to arrive at the target doing 1,151 fps in what would be a nice day in the Bisley 'Imperial Meeting' - ie ~70-deg F in this relatively low lying range. Say it outperforms its specification and actually produces 3,000 fps MV, it still drops to a shade under 1,200 fps at this distance. Last year's 'Imperial' was shot in warm (by English standards) and mostly light winds and the scores were uniformly high at all distances including at 900 and 1,000 yards - lots of 'possibles' with just an occasional dropped 'V'. Increase the ambient temperature to 85-deg F which a few matches might have been shot in and with 3,000 fps MV the bullet is predicted to be right on the old US Army key boundary of sound barrier + 100 fps. With 13-inch twist barrels the norm, the Sg is comfortably high, but not in the super-high levels that Bryan is now talking about in Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting. This also assumes that there is a nil MV spread - at normal temperatures, certainly in winter ones, the slower bullets risk being subsonic rather than seriously transonic.

This is of purely academic interest to me as I haven't shot 'Target Rifle' for a long, long time and never came anywhere near doing so well enough to consider entering the 'Imperial Meeting' anyway. I just wonder that as these guys and girls are doing much better than theory and practice says that they should be doing, whether there are issues that effect those of us who shoot long-range precision disciplines such as BR and F.

The one certain thing is that most of us know a great deal more today about these issues than we did 10 years ago. (In year one of FTR, the experts were telling us to shoot 155s in 308s and to use as slow a twist as possible - my first FTR barrel was a 13.5-inch twist - bad move for shooting the 155 Lapua Scenar at 1,000 in chilly November European F-Class Championship stages! My second barrel which came not a lot later was a 10!) And we have to thank Bryan for in my case anyway about 99% of that increased knowledge of what makes long-range rifles and bullets work, or not, as the case may be.
 
I'm still intrigued as to how come the old 155gn Sierra MK, the 2155 version works so well at 1,000 yards in GB 'Target Rifle'
I was given 2000 of the first production run lot (#1123-224) of them in early 1991 to test months before other lots were sold at retail. That lot was used for load development and a special match later that year. They tested in the 2/10ths MOA range in Sierra's 200 yard indoor range. In my 4 different Palma barrels, they tested 1/2 MOA or better through 800 yards with two different loads.

Their G1 BC at about .450 is 10% less than the #2156 new one at about .500. A good lot of the old ones with more consistent shape and better balance will shoot smaller groups than an average lot of the new ones. Bullet accuracy is best when all bullet trajectories are shaped the same. Not always the ones with the flattest trajectory.
 
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That raises questions (in my mind at any rate) that whilst there may be benefits to stability in trans / sub-sonic flight modes from some or all of these changes what effects do they have on more 'normal' long-range shooting, with less exotic cartridges / bullets than seen in KO2M etc - that is up 1,200 yards or so? Are there benefits waiting for us F-Class and FTR shooters who don't exceed 1,000 yard distances? Or are such changes precision neutral at these shorter distances? Or are they of benefit at ELR only and have downsides at distances where the bullet is still comfortably supersonic?

....


Very early days but working on new bullet designs to ask this question.

Hopefully, some positive tweaks can be figured out?????

But a lot more range and competition shooting before anything can be firmed up.

Jerry
 
Question for Bryan:
How well does the 200.20X do passing through the transonic range? The rifle is a 1/10 twist and muzzle velocity is 2,550 fps. Has it been tested as to what velocity it may become unstable?

Thanks.
Tom
 
Since this thread was resurrected from 2 1/2 years ago, My question goes back to Bryan's original answer. He said the bullet yaws in the trans sonic range. Once the bullet drops below the speed of sound, does it steady up again or continue to yaw?
 
Transonic stability can be reliably predicted using 6 degree of freedom models, assuming that one uses all the accurate aerodynamic coefficients in the model. The challenge is that accurate aerodynamic coefficients are very challenging to acquire and usually require measurements at a highly specialized facility like the spark range at the Army Research Laboratory.

See:
http://www.arl.army.mil/www/default.cfm?technical_report=7475

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9505/13510ae1996575368da30f662173a6debe94.pdf
 

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