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Precision long range shooting class claims

GeootJan

Hello
I’ve visited these forums many time but just registered now, I have a question I’m not sure where to ask.

there is a tactical training “school” in my area, I’ve taken two carbine classes from them already and I am seriously considering the precision rifle long range class they offer.
One thing set off my bs flag though, the instructors told me that the average modern rifle will comfortably hold 1/2 MOA at 600 yards.
With hunting factory loads.

At 120 yards (deer range in my area) my new cz557 in 308 and I consistently get .49 MOA with Lapua factory load ammo off the back of my truck using a sack of feed as a shooting bag
but Hornady Precision Hunter barely gets .9 MOA

now I know I’m no great shot which is why I would like to take the class but I can’t shake the feeling the guy was talking a little too big.

so is less than 1/2 MOA at 600 yards with a stock off the shelf rifle with hunting factory loads a fishing tale or do I need to catch up with the times?

Thank you to anyone reading this far and yea, I should have joined years ago instead of just passing through.
 
It can boil down to which factory ammo , and "Factory" rifle he may be referring to . There are some pretty high dollar , accurate , "Factory" rifles available . Along with some very good "Factory" ammo . Generally speaking though , let's say your expert is stretching it just a little bit . Most precision hand-loads in "F"-class rifles at 600 is to maintain half MOA . Puts you in that High Master class , scoring-wise .
 
I’ll agree with D-4297 and say it depends on the factory rifle and the factory ammo. Then he said “comfortably” hold 1/2 minute. He didn’t say consistently. With all that said, I’d say you, an experienced shooter, should be able to hold 1/2 MOA with the right factory ammo and absolutely can do it with custom loads with a somewhat factory rifle.
 
I've seen a few factory rifles that shot extremely well with commercial ammunition when enough different manufacturers' loads were tested to find a really good one for that specific rifle. More often than not, it is the wind reading ability of the shooter that is the limiting factor in group size, especially for long strings of fire at distances greater than a couple to three hundred yards or so.

To me, the more important question is not whether you agree with the instructors' "half MOA" statement, but whether you think you might actually benefit from taking the course. Estimates of group size or precision are commonly thrown out with little thought, but it usually takes a fair bit of work to statistically support such claims. I'd be inclined to let the "half MOA" comment slide unless you have some other reason to think there would be no benefit to taking their course. Even if simply viewed as more time behind the rifle, I'm guessing you'll probably learn something worthwhile.
 
GeootJan said:
Hello
I’ve visited these forums many time but just registered now, I have a question I’m not sure where to ask.

there is a tactical training “school” in my area, I’ve taken two carbine classes from them already and I am seriously considering the precision rifle long range class they offer.
One thing set off my bs flag though, the instructors told me that the average modern rifle will comfortably hold 1/2 MOA at 600 yards.
With hunting factory loads.

At 120 yards (deer range in my area) my new cz557 in 308 and I consistently get .49 MOA with Lapua factory load ammo off the back of my truck using a sack of feed as a shooting bag
but Hornady Precision Hunter barely gets .9 MOA

now I know I’m no great shot which is why I would like to take the class but I can’t shake the feeling the guy was talking a little too big.

so is less than 1/2 MOA at 600 yards with a stock off the shelf rifle with hunting factory loads a fishing tale or do I need to catch up with the times?

Thank you to anyone reading this far and yea, I should have joined years ago instead of just passing through.
Click to expand...
Maybe the rifle might be able to that with the perfect load but I don't think any of the students could shoot that good and to sucker them into a class with a statement like that is just salesmanship IMO. Maybe if they spent the time and effort, but what are the odds.
 
Tom Jones said:
I would not be so concerned about the rifle claims as I would the curriculum. I have taken a few classes from different schools and taught a few myself. If you like the class objectives I would recommend you going.
Click to expand...


This ^ ^ ^

Chances are you can find a number of "modern rifles" shooting factory ammo where this claim will be true.


To me it's more significant what exactly the instructors will be teaching about you and your rifle.

Do you have a course syllabus? If not I would request one.

ETA: if they are serious about instruction, they already have a syllabus in writing. If they don't, chances are they're not really serious about instruction. Im a teacher. I never go into any instruction session without a syllabus… even a one hour session.
 
Last edited:
You may want to look into Badlands Tactical. The Basic Precision Rife class. Bobby is a good guy. Steve Suttles used to be one of the instructors.
 
Tommie said:
Gosh, I’ve been wasting all that money on customs. I’m heading to Wal Mart to buy one of those rifle/scope combos.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna have to go with Tommie on this one, I shot 6 big shoots this year. 600 yd IBS, my smallest group was a 5 shot 1.03 and nothing I was using including the neo and 30 lb rear bag was factory....
When people start stretching the little things like advertising claims, I really start worrying....
John
 
Thank you all for the input, the curriculum seems to be mostly on reading the wind without a kestral and posture, important for sure. I’ll probably spend the money on a few lintz books and ammo.
 
GeootJan said:
Hello
I’ve visited these forums many time but just registered now, I have a question I’m not sure where to ask.

there is a tactical training “school” in my area, I’ve taken two carbine classes from them already and I am seriously considering the precision rifle long range class they offer.
One thing set off my bs flag though, the instructors told me that the average modern rifle will comfortably hold 1/2 MOA at 600 yards.
With hunting factory loads.
Click to expand...
I would assume it was intended to mean 1 to 2 MOA.

1/2 moa is definitely precision rifle territory or one especially accurate factory example with absolutely agreeing match factory ammo.

David
 
He was definitely talking 1/2 and the only reason I don’t get that is because I haven’t taken his class yet.

I’m just a back woods shooter and needed to ask someone if off the shelf rifles really are that good these days.
 
GeootJan said:
Thank you all for the input, the curriculum seems to be mostly on reading the wind without a kestral and posture, important for sure. I’ll probably spend the money on a few lintz books and ammo.
Click to expand...
Good call. A training class is a great idea but the one you were looking at sounds a little sketchy.
 
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