Pre-Fit vs Custom Chambered Barrel

[Alex Wheeler]

Its all in the setup. It takes time to insure the bore is running concentric to the spindle of the lathe.

 

[boltman223]

Its all in the setup. It takes time to insure the bore is running concentric to the spindle of the lathe.

Is that it? How do you know that aren't doing that?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Maybe they are, but for the cost of the chamber either they work cheap or they have to make up time somewhere.

 

[boltman223]

Maybe they are, but for the cost of the chamber either they work cheap or they have to make up time somewhere.

If they are "making up time somewhere" what method do use suppose they are using?

Could the profit margin be so much that they are making enough to make it worth it? Do you know what the profit margin is?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I would assume between centers. Thats probably the fastest way.

 

[boltman223]

I would assume between centers. Thats probably the fastest way.

Yeah, maybe. I'm not trying to make a case for pre-fits or prove anything it just seems like a lot of assumptions on the matter of pre-fits when a lot of people don't know for certain. Probably everyone that doesn't work at criterion.

Another question for you. Do you know how krieger chambers barrels?

I know you can assume, but I'd bet you'd be surprised.

 

[DennisH]

Ok, what do you get from a top of the line Smith that you don't get from a pre-fit from criterion?

Criterion is a good company and it may not be fair just to single them out. Criterion along with a few other companies produces quality barrels & Pre-Fits. This statement cannot be made for all barrel companies out there.

I have been on both sides of the fence. A quality Pre-Fit will shoot great, but many Gunsmiths have perfected their workmanship.

At some point the shooters skills and shooting finger becomes the final factor.

You may get a barrel capable of .1s with a pre-fit but your chances will be much better with a top of the line blank/smith IMO.

Alex has a very valid point to be taken into consideration when your deciding on your new custom barrel.

Its all in the setup. It takes time to insure the bore is running concentric to the spindle of the lathe.

And this is one part of producing a custom quality barrel. A well trained talented Gunsmith will know and see things many others will not during the barrel making process.

 

[boltman223]

And this is one part of producing a custom quality barrel. A well trained talented Gunsmith will know and see things many others will not during the barrel making process.

Can you tell us what that is(what they see)?

 

[savagedasher]

Assuming again they probably must chamber 20 or more barrels a day . They could be made with a cnc machine . Without automation they couldn't sell then that cheap.
Larry

 

[DennisH]

And this is one part of producing a custom quality barrel. A well trained talented Gunsmith will know and see things many others will not during the barrel making process.

(Can you tell us what that is(what they see)?

The best explanation I can give you is when their turning the barrel, chambering, throating, etc., they will feel or their in-stink will tell them something is not going correctly. This comes with time and experience. They first will inspect the barrel to visible see if anything is going wrong. Then they will start measuring or pull out the bore scope. Reamers will wear out and cause problems during the making of a barrel. Gunsmiths will sense this and inspect further. Sometimes it's caught during the inspection, or after the process is completed. This is the best example I can give you, but there are several more obvious areas that are checked during and after the process. If there is a problem with the lands, a good gunsmith will "probably" see the problem first before pulling out his borescope. The bore is one of the most important areas to inspect, and should be checked on every barrel. Bore concentricity is the main item to check first, or at least in my book it is. We do check the bore concentricity before chambering a barrel. Barrel Threads and your Crown should be thoroughly be checked. A few thousandths will cause a problem. Barrel finish is an obvious. Voids in the metal in the bore usually "cannot" be seen, but can be felt during the lapping process. One who laps barrels all day will know if something doesn't feel right. Yes, this happens.

Rather than try and explain all the critical areas to inspect, and what makes a good barrel, take time and read this article: http://www.lasc.us/BellmThroats101.htm , this article will definitely give you some of the fine points of making a quality barrel. There is a vast amount of information out there if one has the time to find it.

Some of the items mentioned will be found by a good gunsmith turning a new barrel. Some items won't be seen, only measuring the barrel will tell you if there is a problem. But usually a good gunsmith will sense something is not right. Every individual is different and has his own skills. Some only find problems measuring. It depends on the individual performing the work building a new barrel. On outside parts, some can feel imperfections before seeing it.

FWIW, I have watched a few barrels being made, and my comments comes from the experiences I have seen over the years. I hope this satisfies the curiosity between a good gunsmith, and an CNC operator. I have seen the difference. This is why a true custom barrel will cost you 3 times as much as some other barrels.

 

[Mozella]

Pre-fits are what they are. Usually a less expensive blank and inexpensive chamber job. They are way better than a factory barrel IMO. But you get what you pay for. They are not at the level of a $350 blank and chamber job of a good br smith nor should they be expected to be. You may get a barrel capable of .1s with a pre-fit but your chances will be much better with a top of the line blank/smith IMO.

I would disagree. I use Shilen pre-fits which come in several "flavors". You can get Savage barrels in 4 different contours and three different grades including SS Match Select. Shilen offers a huge selection of calibers and different chamber options for most of them, plus large or small shank versions. For example, you can get 7 different chambers for .223 caliber including a couple of neck dimension choices.

I've never visited Shilen, but I have no evidence that they use any less care when they make these pre-fits nor do I have any evidence that they use inferior materials. They tell me that their "match select" pre-fit barrels receive a very detailed post production inspection. Only those barrels which have no detectable flaws are marked "select". These barrels cost about $450, so they aren't simply a piece of Chinese pipe with threads.

No doubt a "top of the line" gunsmith can do a good job chambering a blank, but who's to judge what makes a "top of the line" gunsmith? Most barrels are chambered by a "friend" or the closest guy or the guy somebody else recommended, or the lowest bidder. I prefer to put my trust in the guy at Shilen who, most likely, knows a thing or two about chambering and threading barrels.

Saturday I won a 600 yard F/TR match with my .223 Shilen pre-fit, out scoring all the F-Open shooters as well. Sunday (yesterday) I won the 600 yd benchrest match using my 6mm Shilen pre-fit, not only outscoring all other competitors but also shooting the smallest group of the day too.

Bottom line: I'm sure you can buy a bad pre-fit, but the same can be said of buying a blank and having it chambered. You can use a bad blank, in which case the best gunsmith can't save it, or you can buy the very best expensive blank, and a gunsmith can turn it into a piece of junk by making a simple mistake. In other words, pre-fit doesn't automatically mean bad, nor does a blank barrel necessarily turn out to be good. And while it's sometimes true you get what you pay for, this is not an axiom cast in stone.

Until the Olympic Committee decides it's a good idea to put a fat, 72 year-old, curmudgeon on the team, I'll continue to use pre-fit barrels.

 

[boltman223]

The best explanation I can give you is when their turning the barrel, chambering, throating, etc., they will feel or their in-stink will tell them something is not going correctly. This comes with time and experience. They first will inspect the barrel to visible see if anything is going wrong. Then they will start measuring or pull out the bore scope. Reamers will wear out and cause problems during the making of a barrel. Gunsmiths will sense this and inspect further. Sometimes it's caught during the inspection, or after the process is completed. This is the best example I can give you, but there are several more obvious areas that are checked during and after the process. If there is a problem with the lands, a good gunsmith will "probably" see the problem first before pulling out his borescope. The bore is one of the most important areas to inspect, and should be checked on every barrel. Bore concentricity is the main item to check first, or at least in my book it is. We do check the bore concentricity before chambering a barrel. Barrel Threads and your Crown should be thoroughly be checked. A few thousandths will cause a problem. Barrel finish is an obvious. Voids in the metal in the bore usually "cannot" be seen, but can be felt during the lapping process. One who laps barrels all day will know if something doesn't feel right. Yes, this happens.

Rather than try and explain all the critical areas to inspect, and what makes a good barrel, take time and read this article: http://www.lasc.us/BellmThroats101.htm , this article will definitely give you some of the fine points of making a quality barrel. There is a vast amount of information out there if one has the time to find it.

Some of the items mentioned will be found by a good gunsmith turning a new barrel. Some items won't be seen, only measuring the barrel will tell you if there is a problem. But usually a good gunsmith will sense something is not right. Every individual is different and has his own skills. Some only find problems measuring. It depends on the individual performing the work building a new barrel. On outside parts, some can feel imperfections before seeing it.

FWIW, I have watched a few barrels being made, and my comments comes from the experiences I have seen over the years. I hope this satisfies the curiosity between a good gunsmith, and an CNC operator. I have seen the difference. This is why a true custom barrel will cost you 3 times as much as some other barrels.

Ok thanks, I just wanted to know if your other post I quoted was based on assumption, but I see you've seen a few Barrels made. No curiosity between a CNC operator and a good gunsmith here, but thank you.

EDIT-I did forget to say I do prefer a barrel turned and threaded for a specific receiver. Then I know how it fits and it is reamed straight as can be.

 

[BoydAllen]

Depending on other factors, the differences between barrels can get lost in the noise. Few casual shooters that I have seen put out wind flags, or tune in a manner that is designed to produce the best average accuracy. Often the best targets are put forth as representative of average "all day long" accuracy. For many, the differences that you are inquiring about would be hard to measure, because of the factors that I have mentioned. Shilen offers drop in barrels in their highest grade barrel. These may be the best of that type. They will chamber them with a customer's reamer. One fellow that I know does testing for Berger, in a tunnel, using a rail gun. He has had excellent results using Shilen barrels, on a Shilen action, with barrel nuts.

 

[DeltaBravo]

I won my club's 100 yard VFS High Score for last year - nice customized coffee cup, thanks Virg! I shoot a 6BR Shilen pre-fit and I won against a lot of 30BRs shooting custom barrels. I installed my own barrel - that's why I went with the pre-fit idea - and headspace it using go/no go gages the way Dave at Shilen showed me. The only negative for me is that I have to remove the action/barrel from the stock to re-barrel (ditto for any trigger work since the Shilen DGV doesn't use a trigger hanger). When I'm done, I have to re-zero everything because the scope will have changed POI due to being removed; the action will sit a bit differently due to re-torqueing the screws; and the barrel will be different in a small way. I shoot the same load in the new barrel as I did in the old barrel, the only diffence is the contour - bull barrel now, S7 taper before. They are both ratchet rifled 14-twist and simply love Bart's 68BTs!

I personally don't believe you can go wrong with a Shilen SS Match pre-fit!

Dennis

 

[Mozella]

.... snip.........The only negative for me is that I have to remove the action/barrel from the stock to re-barrel (ditto for any trigger work since the Shilen DGV doesn't use a trigger hanger). ..... snip.........

A barrel swap, for me, occurs when the old one is worn out, or I want to try something completely different. That happens infrequently enough, that by the time it's time for a new barrel, it's most likely time for a trigger cleaning and lube; therefore, taking the barreled action out of the stock isn't really a downside, at least for me.

With a new barrel, even if it shoots well using the old recipe, I do a mini load work-up just to make sure I'm not missing something.

And as far as scope zeroing, I do that every time I shoot a F-Class match.

Bottom line: There is little downside to mounting a Savage pre-fit DIY style. Chances are most folks can borrow a wrench and vise and with a bit of luck, a go gauge too. I loan my stuff out to my good friends from time to time.

I'm with you, Shillen SS Match Select pre-fits are hard to beat, at least for the kind of competition shooting I do.

 

[DeltaBravo]

Mozella,

You're right, I forgot to mention that even tho the two barrels shoot EXACTLY the same load, at the same seating depth, I had to do a mini work-up like you said. It's nice to have a good estimate for the starting point, tho.

Dennis

 

[MarkS]

Is there any real difference in on-target accuracy between say an off the shelf Criterion or Shilen pre-fit barrel for a Savage vs a Krieger or Barlein grade barrel, chambered by a reputable gunsmith? Assume both are the same in rifling, chamber, contour, length, etc.

The prefit is obviously much cheaper, but is it less accurate? For my 6mmBR build with 65 - 68 grain bullets, I am looking at a Shilen pre-fit using their optional .060 freebore, .272 neck reamer, or a Krieger chambered with a similar spec'd reamer (even if I have to have one made).

Thanks.

Phil

Phil,
I have had many pre fit barrels on Savage's. They all work great. If you sent you gun to Shilen and had them chamber and fit the barrel, it will be the same as barrel and chamber as their pre fit. I think this debate is more about the actions, than the barrels. Will a Savage shoot better with a fitted or pre fitted? I think a Savage would shoot the same. The only difference is you set the head space yourself. How would a BAT action shoot with a Per fit? Is everything comparing a pre fit on a Savage to a custom fit on a BAT. I have both, they do well in there on class.

Phil,
you will do great with a Pre fit.

Mark Schronce

 

[DennisH]

Bottom line: I'm sure you can buy a bad pre-fit, but the same can be said of buying a blank and having it chambered. You can use a bad blank, in which case the best gunsmith can't save it, or you can buy the very best expensive blank, and a gunsmith can turn it into a piece of junk by making a simple mistake. In other words, pre-fit doesn't automatically mean bad, nor does a blank barrel necessarily turn out to be good. And while it's sometimes true you get what you pay for, this is not an axiom cast in stone.

Over the hundreds of Pre-Fit's & Blanks that have gone through my hands, I have seen a few bad ones, even from some of the big companies I won't mention. Nobody is perfect, but many have a good track record.

JMO, have a great day, Dennis

 

[sofarfrome]

I had Shilen make me a barrel for a sleeved 722 action about 15 years ago. It was 6MM, HV, 14tw, and long chambered so all the 'smith had to do was set the headspace and thread the barrel onto my receiver. That thing shot lights out with Berger 65gr FB bullets and H322. I did not win any matches with it but I certainly did not finish anywhere near the bottom of the list.