Powder Scales

[dusterdave173]

Just started 7 months ago--I snagged a PILE of first class reloading equipment form an estate sale--I mean a Lot! The only scale was an RCBS 5-10 So I go right out and get a Hornady small electronic--dealer at Precision Reloading said it was decent--$60 I am loading 223 for a bolt Savage Only using Redding master dies
OK I have been able to get some 1/2 MOA loads and have been pretty satisfied UNTIL I go back and want to do another batch that is the exact same--so I finally got a little frustrated with the electronic--started checking my homework with the Beam RCBS--It seems head and shoulders better than the electronic! Just slower--So I had been weighing and trickle up every charge--way too time eating for varmint loads---so I dialed in my Redding BR--powder measure and started dropping and said good enough--well when I check individual charges with the Hornady it is plus or minus .1 usually more--so today I started dropping 10 charges in a pan at 25.3 then weighing the ten charges--Man! It is usually crazy close to right when checked on my beam
So do I need to just keep on checking with the beam and bombs away dropping or do I need to spend up $$$ and get a real scale? For volume varmint loads that is I am convinced for serious target loads I will weigh each one on my beam
Just looks like the electronic can have a .3 spread over the week pretty easy
I am a rookie
I have refined my brass prep to a point that I like and can live with--I have zeroed in on several bullets my rifle loves, and have pretty much dialed on on some very good recipes--but REPEATING exact results has been an up and down process
I am loading 223 only
Charge weight and or weather differences ---can't help the weather so thinking about charge weight accuracy improvement
Help please

 

[Kracken McGraw]

On the electronic scale pay attention to what the tare weight reads when you pull the empty pan off the scale. When this reading fluctuates much, re-zero the empty pan.

 

[powderbrake]

Yes, throwing 10 charges will weigh close to 10X the setpoint, and when shooting varmints, that may be good enough.
BUT in competition, that + and - .1 results in a .2 difference between two shots, and I suspect that it will show on the target as well. Remember that most electronic scales are only accurate to + and - .1 grain.
You are fortunate you only have a .1 variation with a powder thrower, as that is really excellent, and as good as most anyone can do.
To get more precise amount of powder, your "weigh every one and trickle" is one solution. I do not believe there is a "cheap" electronic scale that is more accurate than +-.1. Some that claim to be will drive you crazy with drift.

The real solution is an FX120i with a Autothrow and Autotrickler. Accurate to + and - .02 grains, and very fast. I can throw 30 grains of Varget in 10 seconds or under. This however is the "Big Bucks" option, so keep using your beam scale and start saving for the precision scale.

 

[jpx2rk]

For varmint loads, you nor the critter will know the difference. As a test, you could note the variances in powder charges for a group of say 10 rounds, or more if you wanted, seat the bullet as normal and go shoot one group of 10 rounds, or 5 shot groups, etc. See if the group is good enough for critters.

 

[6bra1k]

for YOUR 223 CURRENT USE.
get rid of the cheap trash electronic scale.
set the thrower based on beam scale weight.
do not trickle into the beam without bumping the the beam..it needs to move to know what the change was.
1/2 from a savage is fine
lots of other small tweaks could make it smaller but no promises

 

[1066]

The 5-10 is a good scale - it has exactly the same beam as the 10/10, it also has the approach to weight system the same as the 10/10 scale - if it's in good condition it will reliably repeat, well within a tenth of a grain and should not require any bumping to give a true reading.

 

[K22]

Don't over think this. Of course, you want to eliminate as much variability as possible, but you want to be reasonable about it because you will learn the biggest variable is the shooter and often environmental conditions.

You will also learn that there can be variability between lots of powder, bullets / primers which you don't have control over. In my experience however, these do not amount to a significant factor for varmint reloads. Slight powder charges variations which seem to be your concern, are often offset by these other variables.

Also, becoming a skilled field marksman and learning to read wind and mirage will pay huge dividends in your success as a varmint hunter. This takes practical, concentrated range sessions under various environmental conditions.

I've used an accurate beam scale for over 50 years and produced excellent and high-quality varmint hunting reloads in the 1/4 to 1/2 moa range. Make sure the scale is level and periodically check with a set a calibration weights. You don't need to spend a ton of money on a quality electronic balance - an RCBC / Readding / or Lyman beam scale will suffice. However, if you are convinced that you need an electronic scale, buy the highest quality one you can afford.

For "stick" / extruded powders, I weight each load trickling to the precise weight. This is just my personal preference. However, for some small kernel stick powders this may not be necessary since a slight variation in charge is not going to make any difference for varmint hunting loads, but you still should check every 10 load or so for consistency. Most ball powders can be drop directly from the measure, but you should also check on the scale every 10th load or so. Also, the consistency of your technique in dropping charges from a powder measure can affect the precision and repeatability of the dropped charges. ALWAYS visually inspect each case to make sure you charged the case with powder.

When it comes the reloading process, I've found the component that has the most effect on precision is the bullet selected followed by the powder used. Usually, several powders that are compatible with the caliber you are loading will work just fine if the rifle likes the bullet you're using. But some rifles will just not shoot a specific bullet to varmint level precision no matter what adjustments you attempt to make. Usually, you discover this early in the load development process.

Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions.

 

[BoydAllen]

Decades back, a fellow that I knew complained of inconsistent accuracy. After asking a few questions I gave him a copy of an article that gave exact instructions as to how to do a proper pillar bedding job. He jumped right in and did one rifle, and after seeing how well it worked, the rest. End of problem. You have told us nothing about your rifle. The reason for their inconsistency could have little to do with consistency of charge weights. For varmint loads, I suggest that you use a suitable ball powder and throw it directly into cases. I also recommend working up your loads in the same temperature range that they will be shot in. BTW perfect charge weights will do nothing for problems caused by temperature differences. The cure for that is to use powders that are not (very) sensitive to temperature differences.

 

[209jones]

Keep the 5-10 scale and the Redding measure, just use ball powders as long as the gun is happy with them. I load my 218Bee and 223 that way, used to load my 32-40 at the range with just the Redding measure as I knew what it would throw with the powder I used. Technique is the key to consistency with the thrower. Shot a lot of gophers with the 218 & 223, and a 22-250 loaded that way. For small lots of extruded powders I use either the beam alone or a Chargemaster, for bigger batches the Chargemaster. Have an Autotrickler V4 now, pleased with it so far. Many years ago I sold the 5-10 scale and went with a Hornady M scale, better dampening on the beam than the RCBS.

 

[harro]

do not trickle into the beam without bumping the the beam..it needs to move to know what the change was.

I’ve not heard of this before , can anyone point me in the direction to find out more about this ?
My Lee beam scale is very sensitive to trickling the powder in , but if this is a real phenomenon I’d be interested in knowing .

 

[209jones]

I would expect the reference is to making sure the beam is moving freely before trickling.

 

[Herzo]

I also have a 5 - 10 that l have had for years.
An OLD Lyman Brass Smith type powder measure that is finely adjustable for up to 40 grains of powder.
A Hornady Lock-N-Load (no longer made) trickler.
For precision loads, I usually set my thrower to where it is just a few grains (actual grains of powder, not weight) short of my desired weight, for most (offhand & position shooting), thrown charges are adequate.
Throw the charge into the pan,
Set the pan on the scale and let the balance settle while I seat the previous bullet.
I then trickle to weight and charge the next case.
Not a lot of lost time that way.
If my thrower is properly set, I will occasionally see a charge come in on the mark and almost never over.
It helps to have the scale & trickler at eye level.
The trickler is interesting in that it is BIG! Has a gear drive that allows you to add powder quickly and a 3" long tube that keeps it out of your way when setting/removing the pan from the balance. The reservoir will probably hold 500 grains, though I probably never put more than enough to cover the feed tube with more than 1/2".

 

[Doom]

The biggest issue with electronic scales is drift. Prior to use, let the scale warm up and use in an area where the temperature is constant. Keep airflow away from the scale. Most importantly, zero the scale before dropping each charge (this is standard laboratory practice).

I’ve not heard of this before , can anyone point me in the direction to find out more about this ?
My Lee beam scale is very sensitive to trickling the powder in , but if this is a real phenomenon I’d be interested in knowing .

The issue is static friction. The weight added needs to exceed static friction to cause the scale to move. It a form of hysteresis. Bumping the beam allows the scale to move to correctly balance the weight.

 

[Doom]

On the electronic scale pay attention to what the tare weight reads when you pull the empty pan off the scale. When this reading fluctuates much, re-zero the empty pan.

Unfortunately this is not a good practice. A 0.1gr resolution scale can drift +/-0.09gr before the reading will change.

 

[6bra1k]

hysteresis: the resistance to movement/change in a magnetic field. it means that the beam may not move/may delay moving esp with the small weight changes we are making. so always bump the beam with EVERY ADD to the pan.. or buy an ad fxa20i.
you would be amazed at the variation of "identical" weights on a beam scale.
not interested in the nay sayers , hunters or plinkers...precision is the name of the game.

 

[1066]

Agree - precision is the name of the game.. But if a good beam scale can reliably indicate a single kernel of powder being added, it matters little how many zeros your digital scale resolves to - you are not going to cut kernels.
I have beam scales that resolve to .0015 grains (.1mg)

 

[Doom]

I put the following together for another forum concerning electronicc scales. It covers the source of scale drift and how to minimize it.

My electronic/digital scale drifts? Why?

The answer is ALL scales drift. Some more than others. They should be installed and set up according to the manufacturer’s recommendations to provide repeatable results and eliminate errors and minimize drift. The scales used by reloaders are typically precision scales of varying quality and price but they all consist of two major systems. The primary element is usually a load cell that generates a voltage output proportional to force (weight in this case). The output of this load cell is very linear but the charge in voltage is extremely small. It is also self-compensating for temperature in the normal temperature ranges it is used in.



To be useful the output of the load cell is fed to a very high gain electronic amplifier circuit. This is a multi-component system with components that have both linear and non linear responses to changes in temperature. Because it is high gain, it is very sensitive to temperature. This temperature dependence has a minimal effect on the amplifier gain but does tend to bias the “zero” reading. One of the primary performance specifications for an electronic component is its performance versus temperature. The better the performance the higher the cost. The grading of electronic components is very similar to quality sorting of 22LR ammo such as Lapua or Eley.



To understand drift it helps to understand how the scale measures weight. When a scale is calibrated, it will use two or more datapoints to establish the variation in cell/output to weight. The calibration should be performed with the platen empty, this is without the weighing pan. For those that remember algebra the equation of a straight line is y=mx+b where m is the slope of the line which is the variation in voltage with applied weight, and this slope is determined during calibration. The scale then uses the 0 calibration point as the initial zero/tare reading ( b in the formula) to adjust the reading to zero. Once the pan is placed on the platen a new tare is calculated when the zero/tare button is pressed.



Temperature is not the only source of drift for a scale. Hysteresis of the load cell occurs. This happens when the zero is approached from different directions and is also dependent on time. Placing a heavier weight on a scale will require a longer amount of time for the scale to return to its “zero” condition.



Good laboratory practice is to re-zero the scale BEFORE EVERY SAMPLE IS WEIGHED. This is a step that is often omitted by reloaders. RE-ZEROING eliminates the potential drift issue and is a common automatic feature on higher end scales such as the Fx-120i and the Chargemaster 1500. In some cases, if trying to measure very small weights near zero the auto zero function interferes. The scale sees the minor changes in weight as zero drift and re-zeros.



It is also important to understand that the scale does not use a single point reading but averages readings over time. Not providing enough time for this to occur can also be a source of zero AND weight reading errors.

 

[harro]

Well I just learned something
I never knew about bumping the beam scale between trickled powder changes .
I’ll definitely be trying that from now on

 

[dusterdave173]

Whew!
Read all of this and all you can find about reloading scales--accuracy--etc and you wonder how a rookie like me does not blow his rifle to pieces, MISS a 24 in sq target at 100 yds etc
From my rookie point of view it seems like there is no way to win--
Except..
I have taken a a cheap dusty yard sale RCBS beam scale--and a $59 dollar electronic unit sold by a big name( Hornady ) and with NO experience --and in 7 months have managed to wade through lots of powders and bullet styles--using a factory Savage rifle---and have managed to zero in on a load that shoots 3/8ths to half in groups over a month of summer weather--and every time it does it also spits out lots of 3/4 in to 7/8ths in groups and the occasional flyer that I cant explain--but Overall-- Most times--it will impress with somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 I am convinced that most of the less satisfying groups are caused BY ME--I am convinced that my rifle shoots very very good for a factory unit--
So my thoughts are improve my powder charge accuracy and the group accuracy should follow--at least some--I know it still mostly rests on ME
But at this point I just can't justify an FX scale-- I WANT one but....I have to be honest with myself--That aiming to load as good as life long shooter--reloader is like me hoping to drive as well as a professional racer
I want to do the best I can with what I have for now--That is the reason behind my questions
I THANK every single person here that has responded--I have learned plenty on this site and hope to keep on doing so

So....it is a new scope with my loads or better loads with my scope for now-- HaHaHa

Like my wife said when I showed her an object 500 yards away--" I am not as worried about those prairie dogs now"

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO shooting a factory rifle, a FX scale would be an absolute waste of money. There are lots of things that you can work on to make your groups more consistent that have nothing to do with the load.