Powder measures, Hand vs. Electronic

[jaytee]

So I've been thinking about maybe getting an RCBS Chargemaster Lite electronic dispenser and I've watched several comparison videos and if I remember correctly it seems like it takes about 30 maybe 40 seconds to dispense a 35-40ish grain load. Wouldn't a hand measure be quicker? Seem like I could throw that handle in just a couple of seconds. What am I missing here? Is it accuracy or consistency between the two? Now I should reveal that right now I hand dip and weigh each load so anything is going to be a vast improvement as far as speed goes. What say you?

 

[BoydAllen]

What you are missing is the difference in accuracy. That is the reason that people buy electronic dispensers. You are absolutely correct that powder measures are faster. Have you weighed say 25 charges in a row from your powder measure, using your favorite stick powders? What kind of variance do you get? (lowest weight subtracted from highest)

 

[CharlieNC]

I have a CM with optimized parameters and a small dispensing tube insert; and a Scott Parker tuned Redding setup with a video monitor and Dandy trickler. Based upon weighing on a separate digital, both provide +/-.05gr. While the scale and trickling is a little faster, with the CM I can confirm weight on the other digital and seat bullets while it is dispensing.

So in the end the CM process is faster for me. But a primary goal is to obtain tight control of the charge weights as well.

 

[jaytee]

What you are missing is the difference in accuracy. That is the reason that people buy electronic dispensers. You are absolutely correct that powder measures are faster. Have you weighed say 25 charges in a row from your powder measure, using your favorite stick powders? What kind of variance do you get? (lowest weight subtracted from highest)

So Boyd your saying that the electronic units are more accurate? I have an old uniflow that I've had for years and have never used it. As a matter of fact, its one that my brother got years ago and I'm not sure if all the pieces are even there, seems like its only got the one drum. I started out just dipping and weighing each load and thats the way I've done it for danged near 40 years. I was just thinking that now might be a good time to upgrade and was wondering which way I should go. I like the idea of being able to push a button and let the electronic unit do its thing while I'm charging an empty case and seating a bullet. Seems like a guy could really get a rhythm going and make short work of the task at hand. On the other hand, if my Uniflow can be as accurate, which I'm guessing from your comments that it will not be, I would think it would be quicker.

 

[BoydAllen]

I suggest that you weigh 25 dipped charges, assemble your powder measure and do the same thing, and then come back and tell us your results. The other alternative is to throw light and trickle up using a scale.

 

[Richard Coody]

I believe many have gone overboard on charge weight accuracy myself included. Short range bench rest guys have been throwing charges with a powder measure for decades. In fact many still do. How wide is your powder charge accuracy node?

That said I have a Harrells powder measure. I have had one before. I know if i am being real consistent with a small grain powder my charges will vary less than 0.10. For the majority of shooters they would never notice the difference on target.

I also have Adam's autotrickler system. With it +/- varies one piece of powder. I do have rifles that can see the difference between a charge variation of 0.10 and 0.02. Long range shooters see it the most.

Both have their place. Using a powder measure is so fast and easy but it takes lots of practice to be consistent. Adam's system is also fast and so much more accurate but a lot more expensive. Powder measure is very portable. Great for reloading In the field. Once I got adam's system set up I don't want to disturb it.

Chargemaster is kind of.in between the two. I have had a chargemaster.and the Lyman like it. Neither really impressed me.

I love the smooth operation of a Harrell's powder measure. It just feels.right.

 

[jaytee]

I suggest that you weigh 25 dipped charges, assemble your powder measure and do the same thing, and then come back and tell us your results. The other alternative is to throw light and trickle up using a scale.

Okay so I went down to the shop and dug out the crusty Uniflow. Took it all apart, took some 0000 steel wool to the drum and got it cleaned up and then took it all to the parts washer and gave it a good going over. Like I said earlier, its been in a drawer in the shop since 1990 but it cleaned up well. Put it together and just guessed at the plunger position to give me around a 44 gr. charge and snugged it down. I wasn't concerned about how much I was throwing I was just trying to see how consistent it was. First throw was 58.2 followed by 57.9 twice. Then a 58.1 and another 57.9. Mind you I've never used one of these but have read and heard that consistency in the stroke is key so I tried my best to be consistent. I thew 25 charges and they ranged from a high of my first throw of 58.2 to a low of 57.7 with the bulk being in the 57.8 to 57.9. I had a stretch where I threw 4 57.9's in a row. I did experiment a little and started pausing about a second between the strokes and it seemed to help. And finally, I did have my hopper about 1/4 full for the first 4 or 5 but then decided to top it off. I was using H 414. As for the dipping and then weighing charges, I dont think I was clear on what I meant. I dont dip and charge, I use a dipper to the pan on the 10-10 and then trickle up. That method is obviously going to be more consistent unless I read the scale wrong. Its just painfully slow. I did think that the Uniflow was a bit clunky to use, it just didn't seem to have a smooth flow about it but that could just be because its a new process to me.

 

[stork]

Baffles are a must if you want consistent throws. Without, you have more pressure with a full reservoir than when you have it only 1/4 full. You need the same pressure on the cylinder if you want better results. Ball & flake powders are your friend. Long stick powders are best dropped a few tenths light & trickled up to the mark.

Even with ball powders I drop at least 10 to settle the powder.

 

[RegionRat]

Jaytee, when I only had one CM, I would throw a charge and place the pan on the CM and hit the button. That saves the part of the time it took to dispense the bulk of the charge before the CM slowed down as it gets closer to the target weight. With practice I got very good at this and was faster than letting the machine run the whole task, but it required hard focus for long runs. I did it that way cause I had no choice at that time. Then I woke up one day and realized I couldn't afford not to add another machine...

To keep the story short, I ended up running two machines at the same time so I could just focus on picking up a pan and filling cases. A third one would have been on the table, but about the time I was going to grab a third CM, the AutoTrickle was in the works and I held off on that third unit. Glad I did because a single AutoTrickle/Autothrow replaced the ChargeMasters, and it holds a tighter tolerance too.

There are ways to speed up the process with a ChargeMaster, some of which include using a hand thrown bulk charge to start with, and letting the CM finish. However, there are differences required of the operator for all of the speed methods, and some require more focus while with others you are fairly on autopilot.

When I am faced with a whole table covered with cases to be filled for a travel match or a prairie dog trip, I look for ways to make it efficient and easy at the same time.

A load/gun system that can run with a thrown charge will work in some applications like the prairie dog loads.

It takes some experience with throwers to learn to keep their dispersion to a minimum. Not all powder types are the same trouble. A Lee Perfect Powder Measure can often outperform a unit that costs more than 10 times as much. Remember to play with baffles in the powder hopper, they tend to improve most times, but there will still be a dispersion on stick powders no matter the machine or methods.

If you limit the thrown charges to systems where the node is tolerant and your targets make your game work, you are going to be happy. However, there will be places where beam scales and electronics will be pushed to their limits because the vertical spreads are directly affected by charge spreads. You can't fake it in those arenas but if you are not in those games, carry on.

 

[garandman]

My Frankford Arsenal kicks out a 41.5 gr H4350 load very accurate / consistent in about 10-12 seconds.

 

[BoydAllen]

Okay so I went down to the shop and dug out the crusty Uniflow. Took it all apart, took some 0000 steel wool to the drum and got it cleaned up and then took it all to the parts washer and gave it a good going over. Like I said earlier, its been in a drawer in the shop since 1990 but it cleaned up well. Put it together and just guessed at the plunger position to give me around a 44 gr. charge and snugged it down. I wasn't concerned about how much I was throwing I was just trying to see how consistent it was. First throw was 58.2 followed by 57.9 twice. Then a 58.1 and another 57.9. Mind you I've never used one of these but have read and heard that consistency in the stroke is key so I tried my best to be consistent. I thew 25 charges and they ranged from a high of my first throw of 58.2 to a low of 57.7 with the bulk being in the 57.8 to 57.9. I had a stretch where I threw 4 57.9's in a row. I did experiment a little and started pausing about a second between the strokes and it seemed to help. And finally, I did have my hopper about 1/4 full for the first 4 or 5 but then decided to top it off. I was using H 414. As for the dipping and then weighing charges, I dont think I was clear on what I meant. I dont dip and charge, I use a dipper to the pan on the 10-10 and then trickle up. That method is obviously going to be more consistent unless I read the scale wrong. Its just painfully slow. I did think that the Uniflow was a bit clunky to use, it just didn't seem to have a smooth flow about it but that could just be because its a new process to me.

Big attaboy. You actually did the work, the experiment. Now you have a base line. Ball powder is the very easiest. Stick powder is a lot more challenging, in terms of hitting your marks consistently. I always throw 15 - 20 charges fast, pouring each back in the hopper as I go, before I begin actually trying to throw charges. I do this to settle the powder in the reservoir. In the past, using extruded powder, I have done more experiments with different techniques, than anyone that I have ever heard or read about. In the process I have learned a lot about the effects of different ways of doing things. For instance, you read a lot about tapping, but did you know that the harder you tap, the heavier the charge? That is why I try to substitute other methods. The list goes on. Comparing baffle to no baffle, If I put some tape on the hopper and keep adding powder to keep it between two depths of fill, I get better results than I have with a baffle, at least with the measures and powders that I have tested. I see that you have discovered that rate of operation has an effect. For a couple of friends measures, and a couple of small grained stick powders that I worked with for friends, I fount that approaching the fully open, fill position on a slow three count, pausing for the same count and then moving the handle to the point where the cavity is closed on the same count, works very well, allowing throws that stay within my target range of +- .1 grain. For various reasons, I am not a fan of Uniflows. There are no magic measures, but some are batter than others.

 

[INTJ]

Just get one of these and be done with it.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/powder-dispensing-perfected-the-amazing-autotrickler-v3/

 

[boltman13]

Because my major passion is F-Class and some IBS 600 yd BR I had no problem justifying an Autotrickler. Back when I shot a lot of 200 yard reduced course High Power I used a Redding BR30 and TAC and had no problem keeping up. I did weigh my 600 yard load when I shot across the course using Varget, however.

 

[jaytee]

Just get one of these and be done with it.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/powder-dispensing-perfected-the-amazing-autotrickler-v3/

I looked at those earlier. Very nice but probably a little out of my price range but hey, I might get a wild hair and get one. I'd still have to come up with a good electronic scale to use with it.

 

[INTJ]

I looked at those earlier. Very nice but probably a little out of my price range but hey, I might get a wild hair and get one. I'd still have to come up with a good electronic scale to use with it.

You can get the whole package together. It is more expensive that's the others, but it's fast, accurate, and you never worry about the accuracy of your powder charges.

https://ceproducts.shop/products/pre-order-of-the-the-whole-kit-v3

 

[DocBII]

jaytee,

Bite the bullet and get the whole Autotrickler package. I've gone from a balance beam to a PACT when they first came out, then last year to the full FX/120 and Autotrickler V2 setup. (Found one used for a reasonable price.) Night and day difference in speed and precision, even with large or small charges of stick or ball powders.

With the PACT, it would take 30-60 seconds to throw a charge and get repeatable results, even the the high speed dispenser upgrade. A learning curve was also present for how the scale would behave, but I could get consistent loads of +/- 2-5 kernels depending upon the powder fineness. I consider the load good if it's +/- 0.02 gr. with the Autotrickler setup.

Some of my buddy's still use a Chargemaster with a balance beam for charges, but it still takes them a lot of time. Only thing better I've seen used would be the Prometheus, but that's for the folks with really deep pockets.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[powderbrake]

I wasn't concerned about how much I was throwing I was just trying to see how consistent it was. First throw was 58.2 followed by 57.9 twice. Then a 58.1 and another 57.9. Mind you I've never used one of these but have read and heard that consistency in the stroke is key so I tried my best to be consistent. I thew 25 charges and they ranged from a high of my first throw of 58.2 to a low of 57.7 with the bulk being in the 57.8 to 57.9.

So, with the same setting you got 58.2 to 57.7. That is a .5 gr difference, lets call it +- .25 gr. That's about as good as I can do with any powder measure. I am pretty sure that if you did thousands of throws, it would average out to the desired setting. BUT...….. in a group of shots on target, EACH shot is important in establishing the group, so EACH throw of the measure needs to hit the desired value.

A Chargemaster can read out to +-.10, so it is better than a powder measure, but it takes a relatively long time to produce that "throw".

If you want both fast and precise, the Autothrow/Autotrickler will produce "throws" to within +- .02 ( 10 x better than a thrower) in about 10 seconds.

I believe you have to decide for yourself how consistent your "throws " must be , and buy the system that will produce that consistency.

 

[dc.fireman]

You can change the speed parameters on the Chargemasters, decreasing the amount of time per throw. I watched several videos on Youtube showing you how to do this. I was able to change two of the parameters to make it so that it throws the charge, and by the time I seat a bullet on the previosu case, the next one beeps, and is ready to go. Changing the parameters on mine, did not affect the accuracy of the throws, as weighed across two different electronic scales (Dillon, FA)