• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Powder and Primers - .308Win F-Class

I was right in that range previously, but this new data I am getting from my load development puts me at 2685 fps. This could be the Labradar and it might be picking up the signal a little farther out than I have gotten before.

I will double check the settings. Still trying to get use to this. I miss my Magnetospeed, but not having a good way of attaching it at the time without impacting the barrels sine wave was a huge issue. I see now that this has pretty much been solved with the post I recently saw here on AS.
 
I have been shooting .308 Win in my F-TR rifle, I am thinking about is there a better powder or primer that I should be using.

Rifle:
Remington 700 Trued and Blueprinted action
Barrel: 1:10 Twist
30" Heavy

Rounds:
Berger 185gr Juggernauts
Lapua Win brass
CCI BR-2 primers
Hodgdon Varget

I am get an occasional flyer and wonder if it could be either the powder or primer. Use an analytical scale so I am sure that the loads are consistent. I am going to try some Federal 210M primers to see if they perform any better. But was wondering if maybe some Hodgdon H4350 might be a good alternate choice.

Are there any other primers or powders that I might try?
What do you think about the H4350?

Thanks very much for the input.
Patrick
I shot 1,000's of rounds of Berger 185gr VLD with 42.6gr of Varget, 210M, Winchester brass, in my M70 match rifle (1:8.5" & 1:11" Obermeyer 5R). Very consistent.
 
I current do not. I sold the one I had recently, but had examined the bore closely after this issue started and could see nothing.

I have seen my grouping come back inline with this load development at least at 220 yards. I will see if it performs at 500 yards this weekend.

What was strange is that when I put the rifle away after our last match in August last year, it was shooting well. In November I purchased the Wilson Seating Die and K&M Arbor and it wasn't until March when we had our first match that I saw that everything had fallen apart.

I do need to order a Bore Scope from Amazon. I want one that I can plug into my computer or use as blue tooth but don't know which one to purchase. Any suggestions?

I see. It just seems odd that A Juggernaut load would suddenly fall apart like that. It usually a very tolerant bullet and [jokingly] one that you almost have to try to make it shoot poorly. Have you tried going back to the die/press you used for that load previously to see if something could be different there?

As far as bore scopes, I have a Hawkeye. It's a very good quality borescope, but it's also very expensive and unless you're willing to spend a LOT MORE money, you can't generate/store digital images. Before purchasing the Hawkeye, I looked very closely at the Lyman Borecam system, which had just come out . The resolution was not as good then, but I think they have improved it a bit. I can image for many shooters that simply wish to have a look-see inside their barrels from time to time, the resolution and price of the Lyman, as well as its ability to generate digital images, would make it more than satisfactory. If I were going to buy one now, I would strongly consider the Lyman.

FWIW - I was a huge MagnetoSpeed fan when I finally broke down and purchased a LabRadar. It might take a bit of adjustment, but I suspect the LabRadar will grow on you over time.
 
Ned,
Thanks for the great replies.
With regards to switching back on the dies. Yes, during my load development, I did a set with the Wilson and a set with the Redding (my old die). I could not get consistent groups with the Wilson but the Redding did provide good groups. To ensure that it was not a fluke, I redid the load development with the Redding a second time and confirmed that it was providing a more consistent load.

In reflecting, the only other thing that changed was that i ordered 1000 rounds of Juggernauts, as I had burned through my last batch. They are different than the previous batch in that they are the most consistent batch of Jugs that I have ever used.

It looks like the new speed for my rifle is 2685 fps instead of 2737 fps which is where I was last year. It could be that the barrel is changing, after the load development, I have 1787 rounds down the pipe. The barrel is a Benchmark, SS, 5R, 1:10 twist, 30" long. I would expect that the barrel may be changing, but would think running the .308, 185gr @ 42.7 gr of powder that I should be able to get upwards of 3000 rounds before the barrel is shot out. Of course this is solely based on a calculator I got here on AS.

This is my first competition rifle. I have never, with the exception of my 22's fired so many rounds down a barrel, so I am learning. With the lead time, I probably should get a barrel on order sooner than later as this may be my last season for this one. The one thing I may do differently is to go to a 1:9 twist instead of the 1:10 I have now. This would be marginally better for the Jugs but also allow me to shoot the 200.20X more effectively.

At some point, when I get my shop setup, and my lathe out of storage, I will be in a position to chamber my own barrels. I think at that time I will need a bore scope more than now. I will check out the Lyman. I now wish I had kept the endoscope that I sold but it only was 18 inches long.
 
Mr Ludd is giving some good advice. 44+ of varget under a jugg about 15 to 20 thousandths off the lands is a solid bet. I would also try them jammed into the lands if all else fails. I had a barrel that wouldn’t rise above mediocrity with the juggs until I jammed them, at which point it really sang.

I also concur on the LabRadar. I sold my magnetospeed to get one and have not looked back. Once you get the hang of setting it up correctly, it’s superior in just about every way. Make sure it’s set up just like the instructions say. And lining it up with the target is a lot easier if you use a small metal tube as a “scope” (just hold it in the notch and look through the tube). I got a hippie stainless steel straw at Whole Foods that works perfectly.

As for twist, you’re going the wrong way! A 10 twist is more than enough for a 200.20x. It will stabilize a 215 hybrid just fine as well. If anything, I’d drop down to an 11 twist- which should tighten up your groups a little. (Berger’s recommended twist for the 200.20x is an 11).
 
According to my measurements 44 gr of Varget under a 185 gr Juggernaut will compress the powder by 0.015". I tested up to 45.5 hr and the performance was not acceptable. What works in one rifle does not determine the performance in another.

I agree with your assessment of Ned.

As for twist rates, Berger shows minimum twist rate in their publication. 11 twist is minimum not optimum. I have had a lot of conversations with their technicians. I have contemplated going to 200 or 215 gr Hybrids. Hence my decision to go with either a 9 or 9.5 twist.
 
FWIW - I have been shooting the 200.20X bullet out of an 11.0-twist barrel. They shoot extremely well. I also shoot the 185 Hybrids out of the same barrel. According to Berger's twist rate calculator, I would need a minimum ~10.5-twist at the elevation/temp range I shoot most often.

Like Damon, I am a fan of not using any more twist than absolutely necessary, possibly even under-spinning bullets by a very small amount. That is what I will usually do if I have to choose between a slightly slow twist rate or almost a full 1" twist faster, due to barrel availability, and not wanting to wait several months for a custom order with an non-standard twist rate.

Several years ago, Bryan Litz used to advocate that a minimum gyroscopic stability coefficient (Sg) of 1.4 was sufficient to obtain the full intrinsic BC of a bullet. After further computer-modeling exercises, he increased that to the current recommended Sg of 1.5. FWIW - the 200.20Xs from my 11-twist barrel are estimated to have an Sg of ~1.37, well below the suggested Sg of 1.5. Clearly, I may be giving up a few percent of the intrinsic BC, but it's not like the bullets are anywhere near to key-holing at the target.

I have had a few barrels with a much faster than necessary twist rate (i.e. faster than necessary by at least a full 1" twist or more). These barrels have shot OK, but I couldn't claim with any certainty whatsoever that they shot any better than the same rifle with a slower twist barrel, and my intuition is that the faster than necessary twist barrels were generally not quite as accurate/precise. If at all possible (and the lead time required to get a custom barrel may be an important factor here), I will get a twist rate as close to that predicted to give an Sg of ~1.5 at 70 degrees F, 1000 ft elevation, with my bullet of choice. If I don't feel like waiting to have a specific contour and/or twist rate barrel blank made, I will generally go with a slightly slower than necessary twist rate if I can find one that is not more than 0.5" twist too slow (i.e. will generate an Sg of ~1.4 or better), rather than buying a much faster than necessary twist blank simply because it is currently available. It's largely personal choice, neither a twist rate that is slightly slow or one that is slightly fast is going to kill you.
 
I don't use Varget, but it is reputed to be a good powder. It's used quite a bit for Palma and F-TR. The only think I have heard is that there is some variation from lot to lot, necessitating a "re-validation" or tweaking of the load when moving to a new lot.
 
Ned, as long as we are on the subject, wondering what length barrel for F-TR Class .308 Win do you recommend. I have been running a 30", 5R, 1:10 barrel. Debating whether to go with 30" again or go shorter.
 
The barrel is a very important consideration. All of my competition rifles wear 30" Bartlein 5R barrels. I basically have 3 x .308s and 2 x .223s that I can shoot depending on the importance and how I feel about an upcoming match. I like to shoot them all (i.e. no safe queens), but some are set up to be more competitive than others, with varying freebore length (i.e. optimized for different bullets), twist rate, and contour.

I would suggest a 30" finish length, in either MTU or Heavy Varmint contour (if you can make weight), 5R, 10-twist, .300"/.308". If you need a lighter barrel contour to make weight, I'd look at one of the Palma contours next, starting with Heavy, or possibly M24. I started using the MTU contour years ago as an alternative to Heavy Varmint, which is sometimes enough to put an F-TR rifle over the limit in a 30" length. I like the extra weight the MTU contour places at the muzzle, but that's a personal thing; not everyone will favor a slightly front-heavy rifle.

The object is to go with the maximum barrel weight you can that will put you safely under the 8.25 kg (18.18 lb) limit. Obviously, you also want to select the contour that provides the proper balance you like with your specific setup. A 10-twist barrel will allow you to spin any lead core bullet up to ~200 gr and achieve the full BC (Sg >/= 1.5), without too grossly over-spinning anything in the 185 to 200 gr range. I would have the rifle chambered with the 2013 (2015?) US F-TR reamer that cuts 0.170" freebore. That will allow you to load 185s and 200s without any issues and lots of F-TR shooters have been very successful using barrels so chambered.

As to barrel manufacturer, my clear preference is Bartlein. To date, I have always used Bartlein and been very satisfied. This is largely because the Bartlein barrels I have used have always shot very well; I have never had a "bad" one. So, I am not generally inclined to change something that is working. However, I would also consider using a Krieger or Brux barrel without hesitation. Any of these manufacturers can make an outstanding barrel. There may also be a few other manufacturers worth consideration, but I am not as familiar with their work.

So, the rifle needs to make weight, it needs to balance in a way you find comfortable and can shoot well, and it needs a barrel suitable for the bullets you intend to shoot. In order to be competitive, this pretty much means 185 gr bullets at a bare minimum, but more likely 200 gr, or even up to 215 gr bullets. With a 29" or 28" finish barrel length, you can obviously still load and shoot any of the above bullets, but as the bullets get heavier, you will lose a significant amount of muzzle velocity, anyhow. The shorter barrel exacerbates this issue. There are those that have reported running very heavy contour barrels for F-TR (maybe 1.25" straight contour?), that have gone with a ~28" finish length to make weight. As an example, with the 200.20X bullets they are getting something like 2600-2610 fps in tuned loads, whereas with a 30" barrel, the velocity would be more like 2640-2660 fps. To be sure, ~50 fps isn't a HUGE difference in performance, but's it's not zero, either. I personally wouldn't choose to give up that much velocity for a very little extra barrel stiffness, but maybe that's just me. On the other hand, there are a few F-TR shooters that have gone with 32" barrels (or longer). Obviously, the added weight is a consideration and might make choosing a slightly lighter contour a necessity. Of course, there are certainly other ways to lighten a rifle, and in the end, you have to make whatever components you choose work together in the finished product. My personal take is that a 30" barrel in MTU or HV contour is the "sweet spot", others may have a different preference.
 
Ned,
Thank you. You have confirm what I was thinking. I want the ability to run rounds from 185 to 215 grains. I know the 0.170 throat is acceptable for the 185 and 200 gr. I was concerned it would be tight for the Berger 215 Hybrid.
My current barrel is a Benchmark, but have contemplated a Batlein. I will need to find a good Smith in my area to chamber it for me.
Patrick
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,282
Messages
2,215,492
Members
79,508
Latest member
Jsm4425
Back
Top