Possible to low load .17 Hornet for 1000fps?

[Zer0Sum]

I am considering purchasing either a heavy barrel .17 Hornet caliber rifle (Savage Model 25 Lightweight Varminter-T) or a heavy barrel .22LR rifle (Savage Model Mark II BVTS).

I am not a hunter. My goal is ultra-high-precision target shooting. My target distance is 50 feet and I want sub-millimeter to micro-meter accuracy.

The bullseye is just a dot the size of a period and the 9 ring is the size of a .22. A perfect shot is perfectly centered inside the 9 ring. My life goal is to have ten perfect shots on ten targets on one page.

I do already have everything I need to reload as I reload for my non-heavy barrel Savage .204 and my .223 AR-15. I really enjoy loading as it appeals to my sense of precision. I like being able to control every single grain of powder.

Factory loaded match grade .22LR has about 1000fps which does not induce too much energy into the barrel to cause barrel whip. But I would be dependent on the factory being truly match grade consitent from one round to the next, which irkes me.

Factory loaded .17 Hornet has about 3650fps which is way too fast / too much energy into the barrel for my intended purpose.

My question is, is it possible to low load a .17 hornet with the minimal amount of powder needed so as to only have about 1000fps, to have be about the same energy put into the barrel as a .22LR would induce?

And do you believe a low loaded .17 hornet would have the same accuracy as a factory loaded match grade .22LR round over the 50 foot target distance?

(I had originally purchased the .204 for this target challenge but found that I am fighting barrel whip with the amount of energy the powder charge puts into the barrel and it is not a heavy barrel making matters worse. It is great at 200 yards where my expectations for accuracy lesson to 1 to 2 inch groups)

So my idea now is to either purchase a new .22LR rifle and depend on factory loaded match grade ammo to be truly match grade or if it is possible go with the smallest caliber that I can load myself for which is the .17 hornet and low load it so it would only have about 1000fps, and be dependent on myself to be truly consistent for all rounds (which adds more skill to the challenge).

Thank you,

Marc

 

[Outrider27]

IMR Trail Boss is often used for such reduced loads and is worth a try. As examples, a 22-250 loaded with a 55gr bullet and 9gr of Trail Boss runs about 1664 fps and a .243 Win loaded with a 100gr bullet and 8gr of trail boss runs about 1045 fps according to Hodgdon. Here are their instructions for finding a Trail Boss load for reduced velocity:

1. Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case with Trail Boss to that mark, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use.

2. Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and this is your starting load.

3. Start with this beginning load and work up to to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most acurate reduced load.

According to Hodgdon, that's all there is to it, and they say the system works for any rifle or pistol cartridge for which you want to develop a reduced load using Trail Boss. I think Hodgdon has all this in one of the threads under the Data section of their web site. I first ran across it in a magazine article, probably in "Handloader" magazine.

 

[mshelton]

Trail Boss is some great stuff.

 

[284driver]

Thanks for posting that. I have never seen it. Let's just say my trailboss trials have been a little more unconventional.

 

[Zer0Sum]

Thank you for the information about Trail Boss. Now the trick is going to be getting a bottle in this current rush on supplies.

I found a good YouTube video about Trail Boss and it raised a good point about trying to do reduced loads with your regular powder and that that causes there to be too little amount of physical powder in the case which I hadn't thought of. (I guess with a reduced load with regular powder that the powder would lay across the side of the case and not be high enough in the case to be up against the primer for proper ignition, which would cause wide variations in burn rates and subsequently cause variations in resulting fps).

One question from my OP thst hasn't been addressed yet, do you think I can attain the sub-millimeter accuracy with a reduced load .17 hornet with Trail Boss powder that can equal or better the accuracy that a factory match .22LR is supposed to attain?

Thank you,

Marc

 

[placek59]

"One question from my OP thst hasn't been addressed yet, do you think I can attain the sub-millimeter accuracy with a reduced load .17 hornet with Trail Boss powder that can equal or better the accuracy that a factory match .22LR is supposed to attain?"


--Your rest and set-up will be just as important as anything else in order to obtain that kind of accuracy. I calculated it out to about .23 moa to shoot a .040" (1 mm) center to center group (someone please double check that), now it will be considerably less if you want the bullet to stay inside the circle, correct? I'm not going to say that it can't be done, but there are few off-the-shelf factory rifles that can shoot that good, and yes, I am a fan of savages. Are you shooting indoors?

 

[Zer0Sum]

I was on the rifle team back in college (Go Pack!) and we shot indoors for practice and during matches. I *almost* had a 10/10 perfect card during competition (the last target was just a hair off center right, sigh)

But that was a long time ago and I only have an outdoor range available to me now. I will only attempt this feat on a perfectly calm day.

I have the four sandbag setup that holds the rifle like a vise. Which kinda feels like cheating because on the rifle team all we had were our leather jackets and a strap around our arm attached the rifle. Which caused severe numbness after about 5 minutes. One time my arm didn't wake back up for two weeks. Ahh good memories.

And I already have a scope that has a circle in the sight picture that I can adjust with the magnification to be just a touch larger than the black circle of the target.

Everything else considered equal, Do you think that a .17 hornet reduced loaded with Trail Boss can attain accuracies greater than or equal to match grade factory .22LR ammo?

Thank you,

Marc

 

[firearmdoc1]

I would assume it could be done if the conditions were perfect, loads were perfect, and the firearm used was up to task. That only leaves the shooter as the last variable. I sat go for it, have fun with it, and if it doesn't work out, you will have a nice varmint rifle.
Good luck in your endeavors!

 

[wapiti25]

you may want to look at the short range (100 yd) bench rest rifles. The good shooters are shooting in The .1XX" five shot groups. I am looking to chamber a barrel in a cartridge that would be a shortend 222 Rem, the body is shorter than the 221 fireball. I have also been looking at using the 220 Russian case because of the good brass that is available. The 222 Remington can be very accurate in a benchrest gun. I think you will need a custom gun and very good brass and bullets, I don't think you will find this in a mass produced rifle.

 

[wapiti25]

I would look at a rifle from Anchutz 22 LR over the Savage. I recommend you read about the development of the 6mm PPC and the brass it uses. My shooting friend and I are working with a new powder for our 6mmPPC's and he shot a 3 shot group at a 100 yds that measured .081" during load development. I have not had time to go shoot since we got the powder. I usually get a group or two that measures about .200" from my gun.

 

[Webster]

I don't know why you would expect the accuracy you want from a factory rifle. High end bench rest rifles cost around $5000. Some of the scopes are over $2000. No one would consider a 17 Hornet an extremely accurate target shooting caliber. You cannot buy BR quality bullets in 17 caliber as far as I know. Some calibers are inherently more accurate than others (6PPC, 6BR ect.). If a 6PPC BR rifle could shoot 0.200" groups at 100 yards, that's 0.200/6=0.033" at 50 feet. At fifty feet wind isn't much of an issue. So your goal is already being reached by rifles of larger calibers with MV around 3300 FPS that have harmonic barrel movement. There are articles in this website in the technical area about shooting 22RF rifles. The competitive 22RF rifles are very expensive. They put extreme care in dealing with barrel harmonics with a 22RF. So going small doesn't help. I don't know why you think barrel whip (harmonics) are the only issue making you want a very small cartridge with a reduced charge as the answer. Barrel harmonics probably exist even in a pellet gun.

 

[articmp]

Webster, 10-4 on the pellet rifle having "muzzle whip". Some guys remedy the problem with a brake called an "air stripper".

 

[Webster]

It's nice to have someone agree with me!

 

[langenc]

One question from my OP thst hasn't been addressed yet, do you think I can attain the sub-millimeter accuracy with a reduced load .17 hornet with Trail Boss powder that can equal or better the accuracy that a factory match .22LR is supposed to attain?

Answer is probably NO..

I down load some 223 ammo. Shoots good but not as consistant as you desire. On the other hand I was shooting at 50 Yards and you want to do 50 FEET.. Maybeee.

I shoot 22 Benchrest (BR) at 25 and 50 YARDS. The target is somewhat like you describe-the Green Monster (USBR). If your 17 Hornet wont do it, get a 22LR and try the USBR target at 50 yards. Then go to 25 yards as at 50 most are very discouraged.

 

[17tbs]

Lyman 49th loading manual Page 125
22hornet (as I can remember)
55 gr #2 alloy
Red Dot 2.0gr for 1060 FPS

700X 2.0gr for 1050 FPS

Cut this in half and you will find the load using 25gr Hornady HP in a 1 in 9"twist. This is not stable in 1 in 10" twist.

Clean your barrel religiously or you may have a bullet stuck in the bore. Check your target and your bore to ensure that the barrel is clear.

I use 1.8gr IMR700X for about 2000fps in a case with 12.75gr H2O capacity. The 17hornet is about 14.5gr H2O case capacity, and the squirrel has about 8.6 to 9.0gr H20 case capacity.

I would suggest that you use a .17squirrel, the round on the left. In the photobucket link. The reamers are available as are the dies. You will save yourself about $600 if you just use a 17hornet, the dies are cheap, you may not find the accuracy though it will be easily sold if you are disappointed. Then again you may have already accomplished your goals.


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/glwenzl/IMG_0067.jpg

http://www.saubier.com/smallcaliber/17squirrel.pdf

 

[Catfish]

Have you considered a pellet rifle??? You are not going to get one that will shoot like that for $ 200, but there are some ral shooter out there if you willing to pay for them. Most of the air gun with the kind of accuracy your after are called 10 meter gun because that is the range at which they are competitively shot. There are also some PCP, precharged newmatics gun that will shoot a lot farther with very good accuracy. With pellets being a lot cheaper than ammo your shooting will be a lot cheaper. Check google Pyramid air guns and you can see if you think you would like an air gun.

 

[Webster]

You probably cannot buy BR quality bullets in 17 caliber. I think I remember you asking the same questions on this website a year ago.

Article on this website about testing target 22 RF ammo in a high end rifle.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl50.html


The group sizes should give you an idea of what your up against. I think your goal is impossible. I think that energy put into the barrel is not the determining factor.


A 22 RF Bench Rest Club. Look at the group sizes and how expensive the rifles are.
http://www.bggrgc.com/html/rimfire_bench_rest.html


No-one competes at 50 feet. It's usually 30 Meters or 50 yards.

 

[17tbs]

There are three steady suppliers of .172" match grade bullets. Berger, Kindler, Nagle. Starke bullets are fine as well if you can find them.

http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/htdocs/Products/Varmint%20Bullets.html

http://www.woodchuckden.com/17cal_boat_tail.aspx

 

[asauer]

Agreed with others above. Your goal sounds mighty impossible given the cartridge (17 hornet with reduced loads) and especially trying to use a Savage model 25. barf. :-\

 

[Tom Thomson]

Marc
My experience may not be relevant cuz I'm a newbie loading 308 with Trailboss. So far I'm happy with the powder (except the cost). I started this route because of noise and ricochet danger. I have groups down to half minute using 12 gr powder, 150 gr Hornaday FMJBT and seated .010 off the lands in a Savage 110 heavy barrel. I think that this will come down as soon as I figure out crimping and solve concentricity issues. At that point I will come up against personal skill limits and I can sell the gun and find another hobby. Good luck with yours!
tommyt