Polite Request: Help analyzing these targets

[Dimner]

Hi there everyone, I'm trying to work up a stable load for long range hunting. I have been following the instructions in this thread word for word.

Long range load development at 100 yards.

I found this target, and I think it's a perfect example of how some people might choose the wrong load because they fell in love with a group without reading the groups properly. This target was shot with my 6.5x47 Lapua and 139 gr. Lapua Scenars with VV N550 powder. At plain sight, 38.5 gr...

forum.accurateshooter.com

So here are my target results. After plugging the numbers in quickload for the first test, I realized I had some room to increase the powder charges with respect to max pressure. So I ran a 2nd test, repeating two powder charges from 1st test to account for the 2nd test being performed a few days later. (50.4 and 50.8) I lucked out and had very similar shooting conditions for both tests excepting humidity.

The load particulars if anyone is interested.
7x57 mauser in a tikka action
Ramshot Hunter
Ppu brass, 2xfired annealed. 0.002 shoulder bump
Winchester large rifle primers
Speer Hotcore 145gr SP
All testing done at 100 yards.

Given that these are not match bullets, I used 4 shot groups. And to help with bullet consistency,I combined my 500 bullets all from the same lot, sorted by base to ogive, then culled any OAL outliers. With this subset of bullets I weight sorted the bullets and used the ones that came out to 144.64-144.71.

In the first test, here are the Labradar results
Powder charge--Avg Vel--StdDev--ExtSpread

48.4--2691--18.5--43
48.8--2701--09.5--23
49.2--2716--15.7--34
49.6--2738--16.6--36
50.0--2775--11.0--25
50.4--2781--07.6--17
50.8--2792--21.3--46

2nd test

50.4--2774--22.6--54
50.8--2788--09.7--19
51.2--2805--10.9--25
51.6--2828--12.4--27
52.0--2829--09.1--19

For the 2nd test there were two called shots/fliers that I did not feel like I maintained a solid POA.
1) 50.8 which I pulled low
2) 51.6 which I jerked and it went up to the 12 o'clock position.

With the attached targets, I'm having a hard time interpreting what powder charge to use for a comprehensive OAL test. Especially with the 2nd test, there is not alot of movement in POI. Also, I'm kind of lost on how to interpret the velocity and extreme spread information into any kind of meaningful conclusion.

So what do you all think?

 

[Ccrider]

I would shoot 51.0 51.2 and 51.4. Also, I would use wind flags of some sort.

 

[Dimner]

Sorry I forgot to mention. I used surveyor tape on a stakes. The best I have right now for flags.

 

[Ccrider]

Sorry I forgot to mention. I used surveyor tape on a stakes. The best I have right now for flags.

That is fine. Shooting under different conditions makes it difficult to develop a load. Try to pick calm times. That way you know what you are seeing is not the wind.

 

[Fuj]

What did you use for front and rear rest ?? The verticals on
those targets could be equipment induced assuming the
shooter did his part.....I noticed your use of Ramshot Hunter ??
For a ball powder, I'm a big fan.

 

[Dimner]

I would shoot 51.0 51.2 and 51.4. Also, I would use wind flags of some sort.

for the test with 51.0 - 51.2 - 51.4 ... should I try this before my OAL tuning? If so, what am I looking for in terms of results? The lowest ES? Thank you!

 

[Dimner]

What did you use for front and rear rest ?? The verticals on
those targets could be equipment induced assuming the
shooter did his part.....I noticed your use of Ramshot Hunter ??
For a ball powder, I'm a big fan.

Oh yeah, that's a great question. I bet you can tell since I'm using speer bullets and bubba windflags but, I'm not setup for anything near benchrest. My goal here is a reliable/stable 0.5moa load for hunting. With my equipment, that is about all I can hold at the bench.

My rifle setup is a Tikka T3x with a McGowan 7x57 24" barrel #3b contour. Bell and Carlson M40 Varmint style Stock all topped with a Hawke Vantage 4-16x.

Rest setup is just a Caldwell "The Rock" front rest. It's an older model with all metal parts. I think cast iron? Rear bag is a caldwell too. However, I refilled it with different media and reinforced the seams with waterproof canvas.



So again, not the best setup, but it's what is in my budget for now. Spent my last big bucks on a Creedmoor sports TRX-925 digital scale. That helped greatly with ball powder and extreme spreads.

My shooting technique feels good. For whatever that is worth. I guess I'm trying to say I have kind of a mental checklist of what I need to do and maintain for each shot so I can try and keep the same solid shooting position.

I try and maintain the same posture, foot position, rifle shouldering, cheek position etc from shot to shot. I try and maintain a natural point of aim where my trigger hand is not wrapped around the stock's grip so my trigger hand is not influencing the POA. The main pressure I am making is on the cheek rest with my cheek. I keep the front rest two finger widths behind the 2nd sling stud on my stock in an effort to maintain the same hold point on the front of the stock shot to shot.

I never have had any in person instruction on this stuff, this is just how I evolved for shooting groups with what I have.

So when we talk about 'the shooter doing his part'. I feel I am within the context of the knowledge and tools I have. I do know there is room for improvement, I just do not know what that roadmap looks like right now.

I forgot to add notes to my original post about where I felt like I caused a flyer, I always make the note regardless if what I thought was the flyer is in the group or not. On test 2, I only had 2. One of 50.8 and one on 51.6.

If you made it this far, I really appreciate you taking the time to help a new guy at this kind of stuff.

 

[Ccrider]

for the test with 51.0 - 51.2 - 51.4 ... should I try this before my OAL tuning? If so, what am I looking for in terms of results? The lowest ES? Thank you!

I would not worry about es or sd or change OAL. I would want to see if the groups stay tight and are consistent. Looks like they go from out, to in tune, to vertical.

 

[Webster]

Oh yeah, that's a great question. I bet you can tell since I'm using speer bullets and bubba windflags but, I'm not setup for anything near benchrest. My goal here is a reliable/stable 0.5moa load for hunting. With my equipment, that is about all I can hold at the bench.

My rifle setup is a Tikka T3x with a McGowan 7x57 24" barrel #3b contour. Bell and Carlson M40 Varmint style Stock all topped with a Hawke Vantage 4-16x.

Rest setup is just a Caldwell "The Rock" front rest. It's an older model with all metal parts. I think cast iron? Rear bag is a caldwell too. However, I refilled it with different media and reinforced the seams with waterproof canvas.

View attachment 1433699View attachment 1433700

So again, not the best setup, but it's what is in my budget for now. Spent my last big bucks on a Creedmoor sports TRX-925 digital scale. That helped greatly with ball powder and extreme spreads.

My shooting technique feels good. For whatever that is worth. I guess I'm trying to say I have kind of a mental checklist of what I need to do and maintain for each shot so I can try and keep the same solid shooting position.

I try and maintain the same posture, foot position, rifle shouldering, cheek position etc from shot to shot. I try and maintain a natural point of aim where my trigger hand is not wrapped around the stock's grip so my trigger hand is not influencing the POA. The main pressure I am making is on the cheek rest with my cheek. I keep the front rest two finger widths behind the 2nd sling stud on my stock in an effort to maintain the same hold point on the front of the stock shot to shot.

I never have had any in person instruction on this stuff, this is just how I evolved for shooting groups with what I have.

So when we talk about 'the shooter doing his part'. I feel I am within the context of the knowledge and tools I have. I do know there is room for improvement, I just do not know what that roadmap looks like right now.

I forgot to add notes to my original post about where I felt like I caused a flyer, I always make the note regardless if what I thought was the flyer is in the group or not. On test 2, I only had 2. One of 50.8 and one on 51.6.

If you made it this far, I really appreciate you taking the time to help a new guy at this kind of stuff.

I don't think you wannt cheek weld on a bench gun. It's just one more complicated variable. Don't wrap your thumb over the stock.

 

[nwmnbowhunter]

I didn't see you mention what distance you were shooting at?

I see lots of positive in your shooting. To me it shows your gun is consistent. No you aren't shooting tiny groups but overall the variations between groups are small. This also tells me your technique is doing fine.

As mentioned above. Test 51.0 - 51.2 - 51.4

This will show you if you can repeat that small group.


You mention long range hunting. How far do you consider that? The speer hot cor do fine out to 3 maybe 400 yards. After 400 yards they just do not compete against dedicated long range bullet design.

Remember to only change one thing at a time.

Test the 51-51.4 area. Then move on to seating depth and see what happens.

I think a realistic goal is a consistent under 1moa load. 0.5 might be tough to achieve consistently.

Don't stress about sd/es for now. Let the target tell you what your gun is preferring.

Keeps us updated.

 

[Jeff Porter]

Remember the purpose you stated. Accurate long range hunting load in a 7x57 Tikka. You need to assure the velocity is going to carry enough energy with the Speer bullet to make a clean kill at the distance you determine as the maximum distance you would shoot a live target. You will not be using a bench, rest, rest bag or wind flags in the field. Bench testing gets you this information but your final tweaking will need to be from a field hunting position. Holding the rifle with both hands, cheek firmly on the stock and using a bipod or laid over a backpack. Even the hunting clothes makes a different feel to the gun and can affect the grouping.

 

[Gary in MD]

Remember the purpose you stated. Accurate long range hunting load in a 7x57 Tikka. You need to assure the velocity is going to carry enough energy with the Speer bullet to make a clean kill at the distance you determine as the maximum distance you would shoot a live target. You will not be using a bench, rest, rest bag or wind flags in the field. Bench testing gets you this information but your final tweaking will need to be from a field hunting position. Holding the rifle with both hands, cheek firmly on the stock and using a bipod or laid over a backpack. Even the hunting clothes makes a different feel to the gun and can affect the grouping.

Well stated

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Where you position the front rest could effect shape of the group. Especially if the front sling stud makes contact during recoil. I typically look for least amount of vertical, seating depth testing to find best group. Confirm at 300 yards, that group holds up as well the drop(group center) is correct for velocity. Let's me know hunting if round will go where expected. I test with bags, rest like yours and sticks/bipod. Then I know hunting I can use any rest and get same poi. If you expect to shoot off you pack shoot off that also. Sporter stocks/rifles can be fussy.

 

[snert]

I am assuming a hunting stock not BR stock.

I would put all the inconsistency in those targets on the stock+rest+shooter interface.

Between a sporter barrel (assumed) and stock, and the possibility of the bags being inconsistently grabbing or bouncing with the studs/bunny ear grab, the vertical is very likely diagnosed in that whole bushel of variables.

I am NOT being harsh. I am totally understanding of your set up and your budget, having been there and done that (A LOT). So this is experience talking.

You had a good group there, kinda a flat little group that to me indicated four shots in a row where you did the same thing (likely without knowing exactly what!).

I have to agree with the other guys. Your bullet choice is going to limit you to 400 yards. So, if you get a 3/4 inch group at 100, and you then learn to do the same or better off a backpack, a bipod etc, you are going to shoot within the limits of the target/bullet/rifle combo.

Spend your money shooting using the same techniques you will employ in the field with this combo and limit yourself to the distance you can reliably put that bullet on target with enough energy to do the job.

Shoot till you are confident in you and the gun. In this case, the Indian matters more than the arrow.

 

[Dimner]

Excellent replies, thank you. Test1 and test 2 were at 100 yards. I'll do the 3rd test at 100 as well (51.0, 51.2, 51.4) and see if I get the same results. If so, I'll probably try the exact same test again at the 200 yard range that is 30 mins away from my house and full of somewhat annoying shooters. Then move to field shooting at 300 or more yards up north.

Thank you for reminding me of my project scope, sometimes I get distracted in the minutiae. I plan to determine my effective final distance for this load based on how precise I can get on the bench followed up by precision in the field under actual shooting conditions.

There are a few factors in play here. I hunt in northern Michigan shots past 250 are rare. I consider anything past 300 long distance. I have never even found a spot (that isn't a corn field or the like) that reaches out to 500 yards. Honestly that's partly why the 30wcf is the unofficial cartridge of Michigan. If we talk straight clinical ballistics 0.75moa is all I am comfortable shooting out to 400 yards. That would mean I have a 6" radius on the vitals at the very least. Ballistics of a over 2800fps load with the speer bullet is still lethal at this distance with some room to spare.

However, there are real world concerns to account for. 1) I need to verify the bullets BC at distance 2) I need to make sure and perform parts 2 and 3 of my project (field testing and training). That's why I started so early in the spring.

This may all sound like way too much work, but I have always limited my hunting shots to under 200 yards. This next season I want to try and open it up a bit, or at least have the opportunity to do so.

Field testing will consist of 4/6/8/12 inch steel gongs at 300+ distance over the summer. Training will start at the end of Sept when things cool down a bit again. I'll be using a shooting stick, natural blind rests, and tree stand rests to figure out where my cutoff distance is. All three are the tools i use when hunting. Then i need to partice with adverse wind and weather and pull distance back further. This isnt the year to learn about wind winthin the timeframe im looking at.

Can u tell I'm a nerd and like trying to only add one variable at a time to the progression? All I know for certain now is that I'm a guy that can hit a 8 inch gone pretty much on the regular prone at 225 yards with my garand.

All in all this journey will help me when I develop a 150gr ELD-X load for the 2024 season. However I have 500 of these speer bullets to work with before that.

So long story short.... this 100 yard phase is to hopefully develop a 0.5moa load before moving on.

 

[Dimner]

Rifle specs cheat sheet:

My rifle setup is a Tikka T3x with a McGowan 7x57 24" barrel #3b contour. Bell and Carlson M40 Varmint style Stock all topped with a Hawke Vantage 4-16x.

My front bag wear pattern tells me I'm being pretty good about not having that front sling stud hit under recoil.

 

[Dimner]

I forgot to ask....

For my purposes what do you recommend for cleaning between tests?

I started test 1 with a fully clean and de-carboned barrel. For test 2 I only removed the copper and carbon as much as I could with solvents, patches, and an iosso blue brush. I think this latter method may be the way to go since that would be easier to maintain during hunting season. Thoughts?

 

[Dimner]

Went back yesterday and was able to do another test in-between intermittent snow.

It was 12 degrees cooler today (40*F) than last time, and I lost 10 fps in velocity with the 51.2gr load as compared to 52* weather. I have read that Ramshot Hunter is middle of the road in temperature sensitivity, My hunting will be done with a majority of days at 25-35*F. All depends on the year. So I think 51.3 might be the right spot to load at. What do you guys think?

Should I perform this test again at 200, or load up some 51.3 and see if I can tune further with OAL? In either case, the next tests I'll do at a 200 yard bench.

 

[Ccrider]

You may have reached the potential of the gun, load and your ability to shoot. My guess is that seating depth is not going to change the groups much.

If possible, I would move to the longest distance I will be shooting and test there using 51.2-51.5. Pick the best load and adjust seating depth at .001 increments.

 

[bulaman]

It looks like with this combination of bullet and powder, your rifle likes the velocity just over 2800. It will be interesting to see what you find as you shoot this load more if, regardless of temperature, the 2802+- node holds for you. For me, I'd stick with that velocity node and work seating depth to see what that does as well.

As above, the real tell tale results will be if the accuracy is sufficient for you shooting with hunting clothes, and off hunting type rests (sticks, backpack, bipods....whatever you use).