Please explain

[RetiredArmy]

I read about an action being trued and timed(trigger). I understand the trued part. Please explain the timed part.
Thanks Bill

 

[cuznguido]

This will get interesting.

 

[Mulligan]

https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

@Alex Wheeler has some dandy videos the explain what you are asking.
Check them out.
CW

 

[cuznguido]

I am disappointed, and not trying to be facetious in the least. I have read some articles about this and seen a couple of discussions, and I thought the guys here might be able to dissect this topic down to an understandable level. I really do not get it. I am sure it may be a real issue, but it has yet to make sense to me.

 

[watercam]

They were not trying to be facetious. It is somewhat difficult to explain but easy to see on the videos. It concerns how and when the cocking piece is engaged relative to the extraction phase of cocking a bolt action rifle.
The videos above are really worth a watch. Alex is very good at what he does and explains things well.

 

[MakeSawDust]

As said above, it takes a very solid understanding of everything that happens when you open and close the bolt to understand timing. It would take a couple paragraphs to explain a specific nuance of timing, but pages to explain every part of it. If you want to get really specific, each different action design will be somewhat different because they accomplish the same tasks through similar but somewhat different designs. Alex Wheeler's videos are very informative and will get you started. If something still isn't clear you could post questions here and someone will clear it up for you.

 

[rammac]

Ever notice how many "experts" will tell you how complicated something is, almost like you need to belong to some secret society in order to get a simple answer.

Trigger timing adjusts how much trigger cocking you get when you close the bolt. Ooooh, that was so complicated to explain.

Trigger timing will reduce that amount of force you need to close the close the bolt but adjusting it properly depends on the kind of receiver you are using, some will require all sorts of adjustment tricks that I'm not qualified to explain since I've never tuned the trigger on my bolt rifles.

Here is a far better link showing what trigger timing is.

 

[Ggmac]

Ever notice how many "experts" will tell you how complicated something is, almost like you need to belong to some secret society in order to get a simple answer.

Trigger timing adjusts how much trigger cocking you get when you close the bolt. Ooooh, that was so complicated to explain.

Trigger timing will reduce that amount of force you need to close the close the bolt but adjusting it properly depends on the kind of receiver you are using, some will require all sorts of adjustment tricks that I'm not qualified to explain since I've never tuned the trigger on my bolt rifles.

Here is a far better link showing what trigger timing is.

A lot more than just trigger timing . Now you know

 

[RetiredArmy]

Thanks all for your replies. Didn't want to start a pi--ing match. I now have a general idea of what it means. Can at least follow a conversation.
Thanks Bill

 

[Evan]

Ok. So rammac explained trigger timing pretty well, but let's now layer that into the extraction timing and cocking timing.

Best way to conceptualize those is by thinking about where the bolt handle is located in relation to the lugs/ extractor and how you would move the handle on the bolt body to alter how it opens and closes and when it pulls the case.

 

[carlsbad]

The controversy arrives when timing the trigger reduces firing pin fall below what many (most?) consider minimum numbers. The most common number used for minimum is .240".

Machining the cocking piece on a Remington or knockoff will reduce firing pin fall by the amount that is removed.

Measure your pinfall. Measure your cock on close. If the difference is .240 or more, you're good to go for adjustment.

--Jerry

 

[Texas10]

Savage actions cock on opening. You can adjust pin fall and protrusion once you get inside the bolt body. There is apparently a sweet spot you can adjust to, but I haven't quite figured it out yet.

What action are you asking about?

 

[msinc]

Ever notice how many "experts" will tell you how complicated something is, almost like you need to belong to some secret society in order to get a simple answer..........

and it's the secret society of Bull Schiddt!!!! I cannot stand those kind of people and unfortunately I, for some strange reason, cant seem to get away from them!!! I have found that just about anytime you run up on some clown that acts that way...the top secret answer that cannot be disseminated...it's almost always because they don't know the answer to begin with. What's that old saying?? {often attributed to Hitler} "if you cant dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bull schiddtt".
All that said {I feel better now!!!}, trigger timing can also refer to when you cock a bolt gun on safety and it releases, vs. not releasing if you just raise and lower the bolt handle. To clarify, if the striker to trigger surface is too long it will let go and fire the rifle if you raise the bolt handle straight up and put it down and take it off safety, or it wont cock at all and just release the striker.
When it is properly timed you can raise the bolt handle to cock the rifle, without moving the bolt to the rear at all, close the bolt straight down and it will not only cock and stay, but it will not release when the safety is taken off either.
Probably confusing you guys more than helping, but I learned all about this sporterizing Springfield's and doing the lock time improvement on the bolt. The striker falls about 3/4" as stock, you can get it so it only has to fall .250" {about like a 700, etc.} if modified, but you have to make sure it will still cock and the safety will still work properly. Not too hard, and definitely worth doing.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If you watch those bullet central videos you can see what the correct handoff looks like and the correct amount of cock on close. If you watch the back of the cocking piece as you close the bolt youll see when it hands off to the sear. It will fall a bit then catch or whats called cock on close where it goes back as the bolt cams forward or even worse it will hand off before the bolt even gets forward all the way before rotation. If you just go look at a few actions how they hand off youll see a ton of variations. Thats when the cocking piece and trigger havent been “timed” yet for the perfect handoff. You can fix this on a surface grinder, by offset trigger hangers, or the adjustable sear on some of the bna triggers. With the latter you can experiment and not ruin a part if you go too far.

 

[michaeljp65]

Does or can trigger timing cause or effect a slam fire? or is that just a case of adjusting the trigger? my experience is only with Jewel triggers.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Usually thats an adjustment. Every trigger if its adjusted like most do it where it “breaks like glass” needs attention and readjustment quite regular

 

[michaeljp65]

Usually thats an adjustment. Every trigger if its adjusted like most do it where it “breaks like glass” needs attention and readjustment quite regular

thanks Dusty.

 

[RetiredArmy]

Savage actions cock on opening. You can adjust pin fall and protrusion once you get inside the bolt body. There is apparently a sweet spot you can adjust to, but I haven't quite figured it out yet.

What action are you asking about?

All of my actions are savage. I didn't have any one action in mind when I asked. Just a general question for my own education.
Thanks Bill

 

[Texas10]

All of my actions are savage. I didn't have any one action in mind when I asked. Just a general question for my own education.
Thanks Bill

I think it's fair to assume that those who've spent many hours working a solution to timing a bolt and trigger are not willing to give away that information for free, not if they want to stay in business for very long.

 

[dcali]

Like others said, it’s not secret. It is however moderately complex to describe and different designs have different nuances.

Broadly speaking, if you think of the bolt operation as a cycle of tasks( that is, open-extract-eject-cock-close-fire, or something similar), timing the action is fine tuning exactly when those tasks happen, and removing any mistiming and slop so that the overall operation of the bolt is smooth and precise. It’s done by carefully fitting parts together that may not have been so carefully fitted the first time around.

It’s not required, but once you feel the difference between a well timed action and a stock one, it will ruin you for stock actions. It’s like going to a custom trigger. You can’t go back.

Jim Borden is known for producing well timed actions straight out of the shop- especially if you get a trigger from him at the same time. If you know anyone with a Borden action, see how it feels. It’s easier shown than described. A stock Remington feels clunky and rough in comparison.