Pennsylvania Semi-Autos for Big Game

[DumpHollow]

There is an old thread on this topic but I am going to reopen the issue under separate cover. In August of this year, two PA congressman introduced a new bill to allow the use of semi-auto rifles for big game, with a 3-shot magazine restriction.

Although I would never take advantage of this privilege, I am not opposed. This would be in line with most of the rest of the country. There are some fine semi-auto hunting rifles available such as the Browning BAR, Benelli R1, old Remingtons and Winchesters that are real sporting rifles.

We have named the the AR Platform rifles as "Modern Sporting Rifles" which I see as a stretch with 10, 20, and 30 round magazines sticking out of the bottom. Similarly, rifles such as the AK don't much look like they "belong" in the woods. What I consider key to this rule change is the magazine capacity limit. That would possibly inhibit the spray and pray mentality. Five shot magazines are commonly available for the M1A which make this a very good hunting rifle. That would be an acceptable limit for me. That capacity is less than many of the lever action deer rifles and the Remington 760/7600.

I started deer hunting in the early 1960's when the opening of deer season in PA was treated as a holiday. We all went to deer camp Friday after Thanksgiving to enjoy our time in the woods. At that time, many camps had rosters posted with the 25 member limit. Those large camps generally put on deer drives where they were shooting at running deer. When the sun came up on opening Monday, it literally sounded like a war zone. I used to count a string of shots because I could identify rifles by capacity limit and general report. There was a distinct difference to the sound of a 30-30 vs a larger cased round like the 30-06. Having been caught on a mountainside in the middle of one of these drives, I wished that the hunters were limited to single shots, as I hid behind the nearest large oak or hemlock tree. Cycling rate on lever guns and pumps can closely approximate semi-autos. Eventually, I quit hunting the first three days of PA Buck season to avoid the lunacy.

So, my experience is that the operating system of a big game rifle has little to do with hunter safety. Hunter ethics and values are more at play. But, limiting the magazine capacity forces some behavioral modification on the hunter. I have been and always will be a bolt gun kind of guy but I don't begrudge others for their preferences.

PA is suffering a decline in the hunter population for many reasons and the result is a deer population that is at problem levels. I'm in favor of change that brings more hunters into the field.

 

[Rock74]

I'd like to see it happen not because I want to go out and shoot up the woods. I was brought up to make the first shot count and have shot numerous deer in NY and PA with a Ruger no 1 in 25-06 so I'm not concerned with spraying bullets at deer. I do have 2 Winchester model 100's in the safe a .308 my uncle gave me many years ago and a .243 left to me from Dad. The 2 mentioned are comfortable to shoot and cary I'd like to throw them into the rotation every now and then but they have been safe queens for the past 25 years.

 

[snert]

I will comment tangentally.
I grew up in PA. Near Pittsburgh in the late 70's. I shot a 700 30-06. At that time there were a lot of Amish Autos..760 Remingtons being bandied about. I left PA in 1985 for NY and college. In 1988 I experienced my first NY deer hunt. I was purely a rifle guy and thought a bolt gun was the best answer to deer hunting in a civilized manner. I thought PA hunters (unlike the story above) to be restrained and generally marksmen by trade. I guess I missed the "mountain experience" or hunted with a different type in the suburbs, where care for houses was a primary concern. Anyhow, in NY I was exposed to a politically effected anomaly I never understood. It seemed that in NY the govmint had ingrained in everyone that a "high powered rifle" would "shoot ya dead for miles" and "only a shotgun with slugs was safe". MY GAWD! I was introduced to deer hunting rabbit style. A passle of guys would line up in the "buck brush" as they called it, armed with Remington 1100 slug guns...with gold triggers as an enhancement that made them shoot better. That shrub (viburnum) was head high and thick, but no thorns. They would place guys at the edges of the field and proceed to have an Taliban Wedding...deer running, rounds flying, slugs bouncing all over the place. Scared the living pee outta me. The only thing that seems to bounce more than a deer slug is a 22...but the 12 ga makes up for it in horse power. I wanted to break out a shovel and dig a hole to hide in. It was the stupidest scene I ever found myself caught up in.

The next year saw me 35 feet up in a treehouse, armed with a 357 Herrett (again, politician driven rules that said you had to hunt with a pistol of 35 caliber or larger) TC contender. I basically became a short rifle, selective shooter, well above the line of fire. I was 30 years ahead of the trend and was highly successful. I took my PA rifle approach...aim small, miss small, shoot once...and applied it to a pistol. I killed a passle of deer over the years and earned a reputation as a bit odd...but I survived with no 12 ga holes in me.

Am I against a semi-auto for hunting? NO. I laugh at the PA mentality that seems to keep people in the 1800's, calling it "sporting". Rules so convoluted that it feels like you need to genuflect three times to the west before taking a deer (three up!) or be in violation of some law written by a reformed Amish legislator. It turned out that NY was actually a more hunter friendly state for years than PA ever was. They eventually dropped most of the no rifle rules. Hunting seasons started in September, ran straight thru Feb 28 for small game, with some areas open into March. You didn't need a pheasant tag. You could shoot does anytime with a simple extra tag. And you could kill Christian grouse and rabbits on Sunday! Gasp! Bag limits were generous. Common pigeons and starlings were fair game, not protected, making wingshooting a year round affair. Air rifles were legal in many calibers (not restricted as in PA to NONE cause they were too impotent in the 70's, and now limited to below 25 caliber in PA cause they are too powerful...ya that makes NO sense), and game was MUCH MORE plentiful there.

I am pretty sure none of the deer I shot knew they died from a "rifle" bullet fired from a handgun and not a 12 ga slug...at least none filed a complaint.

All that said, it is probably wise to restrict semi-auto's in PA, if the guys I see at the Game Lands range are indicitive of the average hunter. Terrifying. But restricting the use of a semi-auto handgun (say a MK2 Ruger) for small game is just Amish. I am sad my favorite squirrel tool cannot be used here.

Ok, long rant over. I will follow this discussion hoping that it brings up some thoughtful ideas. My little diatribe is just that. A long winded spew of opinion, but I had to get it off my chest.

 

[Webster]

There is an old thread on this topic but I am going to reopen the issue under separate cover. In August of this year, two PA congressman introduced a new bill to allow the use of semi-auto rifles for big game, with a 3-shot magazine restriction.

Although I would never take advantage of this privilege, I am not opposed. This would be in line with most of the rest of the country. There are some fine semi-auto hunting rifles available such as the Browning BAR, Benelli R1, old Remingtons and Winchesters that are real sporting rifles.

We have named the the AR Platform rifles as "Modern Sporting Rifles" which I see as a stretch with 10, 20, and 30 round magazines sticking out of the bottom. Similarly, rifles such as the AK don't much look like they "belong" in the woods. What I consider key to this rule change is the magazine capacity limit. That would possibly inhibit the spray and pray mentality. Five shot magazines are commonly available for the M1A which make this a very good hunting rifle. That would be an acceptable limit for me. That capacity is less than many of the lever action deer rifles and the Remington 760/7600.

I started deer hunting in the early 1960's when the opening of deer season in PA was treated as a holiday. We all went to deer camp Friday after Thanksgiving to enjoy our time in the woods. At that time, many camps had rosters posted with the 25 member limit. Those large camps generally put on deer drives where they were shooting at running deer. When the sun came up on opening Monday, it literally sounded like a war zone. I used to count a string of shots because I could identify rifles by capacity limit and general report. There was a distinct difference to the sound of a 30-30 vs a larger cased round like the 30-06. Having been caught on a mountainside in the middle of one of these drives, I wished that the hunters were limited to single shots, as I hid behind the nearest large oak or hemlock tree. Cycling rate on lever guns and pumps can closely approximate semi-autos. Eventually, I quit hunting the first three days of PA Buck season to avoid the lunacy.

So, my experience is that the operating system of a big game rifle has little to do with hunter safety. Hunter ethics and values are more at play. But, limiting the magazine capacity forces some behavioral modification on the hunter. I have been and always will be a bolt gun kind of guy but I don't begrudge others for their preferences.

PA is suffering a decline in the hunter population for many reasons and the result is a deer population that is at problem levels. I'm in favor of change that brings more hunters into the field.

I heard that years ago in PA the schools closed the opening day of deer season because none of the male students would show up for school.

 

[DumpHollow]

Webster, that was true in some school districts.

Snert, I only ever hunted deer in the Kettle Creek Hammersley Fork area until PA hired Gary Alt to overhaul the deer herd. I shot my first buck in 1962 at age 14. In 1967, I left PA for a six year stint in the US Navy. During that period I was stationed near Saratoga Springs, NY which was in the northern zone of NY which did allow rifles. I returned to PA in 1973 and resumed hunting in the Sproul and Susquehannock State forest, specifically the Hammersley Wild Area.

By the early to mid 70’s, the deer herds were dwindling due to habitat changes and the hunter presence in the camps was not filling the 25 man rosters. The 70’s gas crisis seemed to also affect the hunter population. Being in Central PA, camps in that area were populated from hunters originating from Eastern and Western PA. It was 4 hour trip for us from the Eastern PGH suburbs. During the 60’s and and up until 1973, there were still a large presence of “first three day” hunters. The decline in that “mountain” herd and increase in travel costs made it easier for hunters to stay south where the herd was taking off. There were several winter kills in that region that whacked the herd significantly. Also, as the hunter population aged, hunting those steep slopes was something that you had to want to do.
I hunted from the first Wednesday to the last Saturday of Buck Season. If I stayed in camp for doe season, it was only to cut up a buck.

 

[Lee Whitsel]

I heard that years ago in PA the schools closed the opening day of deer season because none of the male students would show up for school.

Mostly correct about that.

 

[snert]

The antler restriction thing sure does work though! I will be hunting an area where there are three documented 8 points, a 9, a ten and a ghost monster. The ten is estimated at 140 class. Cams are picking all of them up daily. Not a twink in the bunch. I hope they stick around till after thanksgiving when I can put a few days in the stand.

 

[dantiff2]

I heard that years ago in PA the schools closed the opening day of deer season because none of the male students would show up for school.

My kids schools are still closed for the first Monday and Tuesday of rifle season, in South Central PA.

I'd love to see PA open deer season to semi auto rifle also. This would help to mainstream semi's as popular "hunting" rifles, furthering the rifles identity and making it harder for the gun grabbers to go after them later on. Give the guys that want to use them a reasonable magazine limit (such and 5 rounds) and let people hunt with what they choose. This is America after all!
Dan

 

[distinguished]

I took my M1A deer hunting one year and ran across a guy that lost it because of the "Assault rifle" I was carrying. I asked what he was using since I saw that it was a semiauto. Then I asked the barrel length, 22 inches same as mine. What caliber, .308 same as mine. How many rounds in the magazine, 3 more than I had in mine. Then the light came on! The only real difference was the appearance. We used to have to limit our magazine capacity to 8 rounds, in deference to the old M1 Garand, even though I never saw anyone use one for deer hunting. Later, DNR changed the reg to state the magazine could only be loaded with 8 rounds, which made more sense. I never loaded more than 2, one in the chamber and one in the magazine, just incase. I never understood why our neighbors to the north in Pa. could not do the same. Last year I used an AR platform in 6mm HAGAR to take a buck. One shot and done. It isn't the gun type or the number of rounds in the magazine that is the issue. The problem is a lack of ethics, practice and hunting skills.

 

[Shawlerbrook]

A lifelong NY deer Hunter that grew up with the shotgun madness I can tell you when we went rifle about 20 years ago the number of long strings of hunters banging away dropped very noticeably. I’m in Central NY where for years east of the Unadilla River you could hunt deer on Sunday but west was a no no. If anyone is familiar the Unadilla can nearly be jumped across by an athletic man and no boundary for deer. In other states they still have those crazy straight walled cases of a certain length limits. I worked as a State regulator for 30+ years and trained certified operators. I always started my talks with….if you’re going to depend on common sense to keep yourself of the right side of the law make sure you keep a good lawyer on retainer.

 

[DumpHollow]

The antler restriction thing sure does work though! I will be hunting an area where there are three documented 8 points, a 9, a ten and a ghost monster. The ten is estimated at 140 class. Cams are picking all of them up daily. Not a twink in the bunch. I hope they stick around till after thanksgiving when I can put a few days in the stand.

I certainly have opinions and comments on the antler restriction.

If the intent was to improve the herd quality, then why do we allow mature spike bucks to remain in the gene pool? Just a couple of years after the antler restrictions were put in play, I saw mature bucks with spikes 12+" long in more then one hunting area.

Many hunters who only had a day or two of vacation were perfectly happy to shoot a spike. That was also a "trophy" for a young first year hunter.

I think that the point restriction gives favor to archery and stand hunters. Counting points on a deer in the woods only works at close range with deer that are not moving. I used to chuckle to myself about hunters in the woods that reported seeing 10 point deer. I never counted points on a deer until they were down and dead on the ground. I still hunted in the "big woods" in Northern Clinton County and Southern Potter County where you took the shots that you could get. Many of the deer I killed were taken threading the needle through a small opening in the timber. Snow cover was a key to success. Other shots were made at range on the open pipelines or across a small hollow. I did not shoot spikes or does and simply looked for antler mass before I took my shot. Antler restrictions took me out of my preferred hunting method. I hate stand hunting. I wonder how many deer were left dead in the woods because the hunter found that the buck didn't make the point restriction requirements?

PA hunting license sales and annual kills have been on the decline for more than one reason. Part of it is the change in our cultural attitudes. Part of it is due to an aging population. At my age and physical limitations, I can no longer hunt in the "Big Woods" where I would have to drag a deer for half a day to get it out.

My brother continued to hunt in the Hammersley until 2019 when we sold the camp on Kettle Creek. He harvested some really nice big racked deer in the area. But I question whether the change in the herd was really due to antler restrictions.

 

[dellet]

I always thought it would be interesting to have a round count limit instead of a magazine capacity limit. Only three rounds in possession might just make people think before taking a shot. It would certainly limit the distance some people would walk from the truck.

 

[AWS]

My personal only concern with a semi-auto is that after the shot it is hot, with a bolt or pump you actually have to clear the chamber and put a fresh round in.

 

[jghoghunter]

I certainly have opinions and comments on the antler restriction.

If the intent was to improve the herd quality, then why do we allow mature spike bucks to remain in the gene pool? Just a couple of years after the antler restrictions were put in play, I saw mature bucks with spikes 12+" long in more then one hunting area.

Many hunters who only had a day or two of vacation were perfectly happy to shoot a spike. That was also a "trophy" for a young first year hunter.

I think that the point restriction gives favor to archery and stand hunters. Counting points on a deer in the woods only works at close range with deer that are not moving. I used to chuckle to myself about hunters in the woods that reported seeing 10 point deer. I never counted points on a deer until they were down and dead on the ground. I still hunted in the "big woods" in Northern Clinton County and Southern Potter County where you took the shots that you could get. Many of the deer I killed were taken threading the needle through a small opening in the timber. Snow cover was a key to success. Other shots were made at range on the open pipelines or across a small hollow. I did not shoot spikes or does and simply looked for antler mass before I took my shot. Antler restrictions took me out of my preferred hunting method. I hate stand hunting. I wonder how many deer were left dead in the woods because the hunter found that the buck didn't make the point restriction requirements?

PA hunting license sales and annual kills have been on the decline for more than one reason. Part of it is the change in our cultural attitudes. Part of it is due to an aging population. At my age and physical limitations, I can no longer hunt in the "Big Woods" where I would have to drag a deer for half a day to get it out.

My brother continued to hunt in the Hammersley until 2019 when we sold the camp on Kettle Creek. He harvested some really nice big racked deer in the area. But I question whether the change in the herd was really due to antler restrictions.

I live and hunted in central pa all my life. I worked with a huge diverse crowd of people from all over pa on most every job. As far as I could tell big woods hunting up north was always either big bucks or spikes, when you would see anything. Where we hunted we always saw deer but before antler restrictions a trophy buck was a spike with 11" tines or a 6 or 8 pt. with a 7" spread. About 8 years after antler restrictions were put in place we have not shot anything under a 6 pt with a 14" inside spread to a 156" 11 pt with a drop tine. The restrictions work! This year there 2 140 class bucks in our area. We don't see as many deer as before but what we see are quality deer. When I started hunting in the early 80's if was nothing to see 60 deer a day and not one buck. In the mid to late 90's on the 3rd of the season I saw 12 deer one day and 5 shooter bucks. I took one of them, a 8 pt with a 17" inside spread. I went from having to skip school to having the 1st 2 days off.

 

[std7mag]

I heard that years ago in PA the schools closed the opening day of deer season because none of the male students would show up for school.

And half of the female students, along with the teachers.

 

[dantiff2]

I live and hunted in central pa all my life. I worked with a huge diverse crowd of people from all over pa on most every job. As far as I could tell big woods hunting up north was always either big bucks or spikes, when you would see anything. Where we hunted we always saw deer but before antler restrictions a trophy buck was a spike with 11" tines or a 6 or 8 pt. with a 7" spread. About 8 years after antler restrictions were put in place we have not shot anything under a 6 pt with a 14" inside spread to a 156" 11 pt with a drop tine. The restrictions work! This year there 2 140 class bucks in our area. We don't see as many deer as before but what we see are quality deer. When I started hunting in the early 80's if was nothing to see 60 deer a day and not one buck. In the mid to late 90's on the 3rd of the season I saw 12 deer one day and 5 shooter bucks. I took one of them, a 8 pt with a 17" inside spread. I went from having to skip school to having the 1st 2 days off.

The restrictions sure do work! I only hunt public land and since the restriction went into effect. Our buck quality has only gotten better every year. If it's a spike, it's certainly not "mature"! It's either a first year buck or late drop the year before whos body is slightly larger than other spikes but still it's first good year of bone on top. Either way, it will be nicer the next season for sure. It's a one in a million to see an old deer as a spike. Seeing nice bucks has and is what has made my boys have a love of hunting. We are very blessed to harvest ANY animal but there's something in the body when you see a nice, mature buck : O!!!
Dan

 

[DumpHollow]

I always thought it would be interesting to have a round count limit instead of a magazine capacity limit. Only three rounds in possession might just make people think before taking a shot. It would certainly limit the distance some people would walk from the truck.

I like this one.

 

[snert]

A lifelong NY deer Hunter that grew up with the shotgun madness I can tell you when we went rifle about 20 years ago the number of long strings of hunters banging away dropped very noticeably. I’m in Central NY where for years east of the Unadilla River you could hunt deer on Sunday but west was a no no. If anyone is familiar the Unadilla can nearly be jumped across by an athletic man and no boundary for deer. In other states they still have those crazy straight walled cases of a certain length limits. I worked as a State regulator for 30+ years and trained certified operators. I always started my talks with….if you’re going to depend on common sense to keep yourself of the right side of the law make sure you keep a good lawyer on retainer.

Unadilla...Herkimer, Unadilla, ...I was from Cortland and had friends out in Herkimer. Beautiful (cold) country. Snow yet?

 

[Shawlerbrook]

Yes, 3” Wednesday that melted and another 2-3” last night here at 1700’ in Central NYS.

 

[Just Say Moe]

I started hunting with a Remington 742 30-06. Mostly from a stand, but did a few years permit hunting in a national wildlife refuge. Found a good funnel spot between a river and oxbow lake and was 1 for 3 on running deer at about 25 yds.....1 shot per try that could have been done with a bolt action. Kind of a pain and noisy to load and unload to climb in and out of a stand so its been idle since 1990. It wouldn't shoot 150's for nothing but loved 180's.