Patriot mills for gunsmithing?

[xdfl33]

Hello, I am looking at purchasing a CNC mill and lathe and trying to do it for a reasonable price preferably under 10k for both. Do anyone know about patriot mills? Are they a good starter mill or should I look into other options? The patriot seems like the best deal out there for a home shop. Thanks

 

[Raythemanroe]

Ten G's and the keys? I would look for a large auction.

Ray

 

[jrm850]

The spindle bore is a bit small for doing barrel work, and the spindle runout spec is almost .001".

 

[xdfl33]

Okay I am going to start out just doing lowers, uppers, flash suppressors, and rail systems. We actually would like to make every part for the gun except the barrel, stock, and small parts kits. We want to move into doing barrels later on and don't want to make a stupid purchase that won't allow us to do so. Do you guys have any specific machines you suggest for the price range. My price doesn't include tooling my budget is 10k for a mill and lathe. I have another budget for tooling.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Fly out to Buffalo, 3753 Walden Avenue Lancaster, NY...Large auction April 17th 10:00 am, Everything under the sun even the stock inventory... Many lathes and mills, Just Google the inventory. That would be the route I went.


Ray

 

[akajun]

I would post this question on Practical Machinist, they could probably steer you towards a better piece of used equipment.

 

[jrm850]

There are good deals on used cnc if you look hard enough, but it can also be a little intimidating if you are just getting started. Fixing broken CNC stuff can get really expensive.

Are you planning on full blown part production or prototyping/custom? Will you have 3 phase 440 or single phase 220? If you want to buy new and you aren't planning on full production you may want to look at a Tormach PCNC1100 or 770. It's no Mazak or Haas but it is surprisingly rigid for its size. It won't leave you much room in your budget for a lathe, but you could probably find a nice old manual unit to do your barrel work and chambering. Owners really like them and you will rarely find one for sale used.

If you do want to try the Patriot there is an auction for one- http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Lathe-Mill-Combination-Machine-/161258660522?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258bc3e2aa

 

[jonbearman]

At very least ,try to find a Haas machining center.The one that I just saw a picture of is a hobby machine at best.You can find used Haas all over the place.Just google machining centers for sale.

 

[missed]

Same here it's a hobby machine.

Monarch or Okuma machining center.

I run a 40's vintage monarch, I have had the thoughts of a CNC conversion on this machine too.

 

[Raythemanroe]

One of those Patriots on Ebay for $3500 with tooling and another for $500 and no bids..They look very lite weight..

Ray

 

[xdfl33]

Thanks for the comments. I have a line on a 97 patriot from $1000 with the cnc upgrade. The computer is just old as dirt and doesn't work. All I have to do is get a new computer and programming. We will be moving towards full blown production asap but just doing custom/prototyping for the time being. We are going to making AR's, 1911's, and we are in the process of designing our own brand of polymer framed pistols. Thanks for the input and advise.

 

[butchlambert]

I think that you are headed for trouble.

 

[smoooth]

I think that you are headed for trouble.

I could not agree more, and on so many levels.

That "Patriot" is not even worthy of hobby status. If you are seriously considering doing what you say, you had best add some zeros to your budget numbers. Watch the auctions, prices are up in most areas currently and remember that you will pay as much or more for the tooling than the machine. 2 good vices cost as much as your machine budget.

Do you or your buddies have CNC PROGRAMMING experience?

A few words of caution about Practical Machinist Forum, you WILL BE BANNED for mentioning that, or any other home shop "machine". They are a different breed over there and do not take kindly to inexperience and are not afraid to type everything they are thinking. Be sure to read all the "rules" and "sticky's" on the forums.

Good luck.....and you do know that you need to be licensed to manufacture firearms, right? Or is this an 80% venture???

 

[Raythemanroe]

I went to a auction Thursday in Buffalo and a small cnc mill went for $400 plus tooling which went for more then the mill..One vertical mill went for $400 and $600 for the tooling that a Amish guy got.. Older Vertical mills with power feed and readouts averaged $2500 at the sale and were nice size machines..I was looking for a lathe and $4000-5000 was a bit more then I wanted to spend, but I did leave with a belt sander..lol My brother got about $3500-4000 worth of welding supplies and equipment for $300 so I think a sale is a good option for somebody looking to get into Smithing..

Ray

 

[butchlambert]

I went to a auction Thursday in Buffalo and a small cnc mill went for $400 plus tooling which went for more then the mill..One vertical mill went for $400 and $600 for the tooling that a Amish guy got.. Older Vertical mills with power feed and readouts averaged $2500 at the sale and were nice size machines..I was looking for a lathe and $4000-5000 was a bit more then I wanted to spend, but I did leave with a belt sander..lol My brother got about $3500-4000 worth of welding supplies and equipment for $300 so I think a sale is a good option for somebody looking to get into Smithing..

Ray

Ray,
Only if they truly know what they need.

 

[Raythemanroe]

I agree, I'm green yet and took someone with me with much more experience to keep me from wasting money..

Ray

 

[xdfl33]

Thanks for the info after looking at the machine in person I decided to pass on the patriot. We have already applied for our manufacturing FFL. We are making some finishing touches on our business plan because we are going to be looking for investors and/or a business loan. I appreciate all of the advice. The biggest problem that we are having is finding a machine that we can start out in our garage with that doesn't require a 3 phase 220v power. We will be moving into a commercial space but until we get the R&D portion and have all of our designs complete and ready for manufacturing on a large scale we are trying to keep our overhead low. So with that being said we are trying to find a smaller machine to start out with that we will still be able to use for the smaller parts once we move into a commercial space and then upgrade to a larger more industrial machine. Thanks

 

[jrm850]

You can run a Haas Mini Mill from single phase. I think the HP is limited but should still be double or triple that of the Patriot.

Did you look at the Tormach I posted earlier? I have a feeling it is more along the lines of what you are looking for. A mini mill is taller than 8' so you will have problems getting it in a standard garage.

 

[butchlambert]

Thanks for the info after looking at the machine in person I decided to pass on the patriot. We have already applied for our manufacturing FFL. We are making some finishing touches on our business plan because we are going to be looking for investors and/or a business loan. I appreciate all of the advice. The biggest problem that we are having is finding a machine that we can start out in our garage with that doesn't require a 3 phase 220v power. We will be moving into a commercial space but until we get the R&D portion and have all of our designs complete and ready for manufacturing on a large scale we are trying to keep our overhead low. So with that being said we are trying to find a smaller machine to start out with that we will still be able to use for the smaller parts once we move into a commercial space and then upgrade to a larger more industrial machine. Thanks

That is why they have phase converters and VFDs.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Ya, would be tough to find a good mill or lathe that is 110v and it wouldn't take to long before wiring 220v would pay for it's self..You pay for amps and 110v would suck up many more amps plus machines with good size and weight that turn out better parts generally are not gonna be 110v

Ray