P Dog 1st hunt need help on what to bring

[Dgd6mm]

Well my poor mans .204 will be the 223 53gr Vmax. With its BC its not that far off my .204 ruger. Just picked 223 because I have a ton of FREE brass and most my buddies have 223s. Just to keep it simple. I agree 22-250 is great.

No idea on how I will shoot Bipod vs bench. Once place I looked at said they supplie benches.
Laying down with rattle snakes? Maybe I should bring my Colt SAA blast them rattlers like in the cowboy movies.

I will most likely drive (Michigan) - with all the new laws and UPS not shipping I think its just asking for problems trying send gear to a hunt. I don't trust others with my gear.

I did a ballistics graph of the 204 39gr vs 223 53gr vmax. They are closer than expected. If you say the 204 is good to 400 yards the 223 might be good to 370 or so. The 223 even hits harder at 400 yards.

View attachment 1369956
Almost 3 feet of drift going to have to print out some charts for the shooters. Or do you guys just look at the dust from the bullets and make on the fly "feel" type adjustments. The 40gr Vmax have 46" of wind drift. Drop wise they are about the same as the 53s if shot at 3700.

Why do people bother with the 40gr Vmax when the 53gr crushes it in the wind and energy? Maybe the wind is not as bad as i thought I used 20mph.

I never would have thought it. Does this hold up in real world conditions?

 

[BobbyJ]

Bob-Primer prices AIN'T going down.
FAST light bullets are KING. Less time for wind and gravity to work on them. Shooting this new 20TAC with 32gr VMAX @4000fps is almost 'Point and Shoot' out to 300yards. After 300 l'm not interested because l cant see em POP!

I still have time and hope they will go down some. But yes it could be awhile.

I ran the numbers on both for 300 yard targets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
32gr at 4000 - 4.15/10.2" 463 Fpe drop/drift zero 200 yards
53gr at 3360 - 5.46/8.28 680 Fpe
----------------------------------------------------------------------
32gr flatter shooting but more wind drift and 200 ft pounds less energy than the 53gr I think the 39gr .204 would be better in terms of wind drift and energy. Its due to the lower BC of the 32gr.

 

[BobbyJ]

If you are driving make a table / bench and bring it with you. Some outfitters don't have stable benches.. Also, the outfitter may put you on another town if you have your own gear and you wont be lined up like hogs at a trough when shooting..

hahaha that gave me a chuckle, lined up like hogs!!

 

[BobbyJ]

I never would have thought it. Does this hold up in real world conditions?

From what I have read from others - YES. But for me I don't know for sure. I've not shot them in high winds vs PD.

 

[46490]

A good skinning knife so you can that special person a nice coat for the winter - LOL! Enjoy the trip and be safe.

 

[sw282]

I still have time and hope they will go down some. But yes it could be awhile.

I ran the numbers on both for 300 yard targets.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
32gr at 4000 - 4.15/10.2" 463 Fpe drop/drift zero 200 yards
53gr at 3360 - 5.46/8.28 680 Fpe
----------------------------------------------------------------------
32gr flatter shooting but more wind drift and 200 ft pounds less energy than the 53gr I think the 39gr .204 would be better in terms of wind drift and energy. Its due to the lower BC of the 32gr.

200fpe means one-third LESS RECOIL. You'll miss seeing that P O P. l won't

btw. lf l wanted to shoot 53s l'd be using Varmageddons. BC is .303

 

[RegionRat]

From what I have read from others - YES. But for me I don't know for sure. I've not shot them in high winds vs PD.

BobbyJ, there is a sweet spot at roughly 40 grains for a 223. This is because the practical 223 distance is determined by both the trajectory/wind and the accuracy.

When it comes to ballistics, the heavier bullets with the higher BCs win on paper when the calculations and distances go out far enough. This is because wind is dependent on the lag time and because the trajectory will cross over due to retained velocity. However...

If the calculations represent distance that isn't practical from a field accuracy view, then there needs to be a closer look at the those practical ranges. Hitting a 3" target at 300 yards, suggests a real composite accuracy (that means all errors combined, not just the gun) well below 1 MOA.

For example in 10 MPH winds using bullets at 55 grains or less with a good marksman and hardware, the practical distances for a 223 on ground squirrel and p-dogs is roughly 300 - 350 yards. It isn't that experienced marksman can't go much farther, but that most will suffer a diminishing return on wind calls and have a low hit percentage. A beginner tends to have a higher hit percentage inside of 300 yards and comes in even closer till they learn wind.

Holding the estimates to more practical 223 distances, the 40 grain class tends to be the sweet spot. Here is a side by side with the 40 V-Max next to the 55 V-Max with fair muzzle velocity values at sea level. The 300 - 350 yard distance values show the story.



As far as what to put in your inventory of rigs for a p-dog trip, a 223 is a good start in terms of performance and value. Almost anything else in centerfire will cost more in the long term. The beginner has to decide on the style and weight of their rig, but also on their twist and bullet.

I'm just suggesting beginners take a longer look at 40 grain V-Max using a 12 twist and keeping their main rigs tailored to 95% of their shots being 300 yards or less, and then optimize a different rig for even higher BC varmint bullets (9 twist or better) for longer ranges after they gain experience. These are just suggestions and opinions, not laws of physics. Many may not agree. YMMV

 

[BobbyJ]

BobbyJ, there is a sweet spot at roughly 40 grains for a 223. This is because the practical 223 distance is determined by both the trajectory/wind and the accuracy.

When it comes to ballistics, the heavier bullets with the higher BCs win on paper when the calculations and distances go out far enough. This is because wind is dependent on the lag time and because the trajectory will cross over due to retained velocity. However...

If the calculations represent distance that isn't practical from a field accuracy view, then there needs to be a closer look at the those practical ranges. Hitting a 3" target at 300 yards, suggests a real composite accuracy (that means all errors combined, not just the gun) well below 1 MOA.

For example in 10 MPH winds using bullets at 55 grains or less with a good marksman and hardware, the practical distances for a 223 on ground squirrel and p-dogs is roughly 300 - 350 yards. It isn't that experienced marksman can't go much farther, but that most will suffer a diminishing return on wind calls and have a low hit percentage. A beginner tends to have a higher hit percentage inside of 300 yards and comes in even closer till they learn wind.

Holding the estimates to more practical 223 distances, the 40 grain class tends to be the sweet spot. Here is a side by side with the 40 V-Max next to the 55 V-Max with fair muzzle velocity values at sea level. The 300 - 350 yard distance values show the story.

View attachment 1370072View attachment 1370073

As far as what to put in your inventory of rigs for a p-dog trip, a 223 is a good start in terms of performance and value. Almost anything else in centerfire will cost more in the long term. The beginner has to decide on the style and weight of their rig, but also on their twist and bullet.

I'm just suggesting beginners take a longer look at 40 grain V-Max using a 12 twist and keeping their main rigs tailored to 95% of their shots being 300 yards or less, and then optimize a different rig for even higher BC varmint bullets (9 twist or better) for longer ranges after they gain experience. These are just suggestions and opinions, not laws of physics. Many may not agree. YMMV

Yea I went with 24" varmint bull match grade in 1/9 twist. The company compiled data from many shooters and their tests and they found 1/9 twist was the what worked best over all. So I started with that barrel. A bit more versitile but yea 1/12 might be a little faster in 40s than 1/9 but only like 10 fps.

I was comparing the 53gr Vmax which actually has a higher BC than the 55gr in your example. The 40gr BC is much lower. Wind reads should be easier with the 53s over the 40s even at 300 yards the 40gr is 3 1/2" more drift with a light 10mph wind. Not a huge difference but if the price is the same I don't see a compelling reason to use the 40s.
- More barrel wear (faster)
- More wind drift
- About the same drop, its velocity edge bleeds away quickly.

What I see in the 40gr is maybe more pop at closer ranges. Its velocity does not make up for the poor B.C. at least on paper .

1/12 if I were to just shoot 40s for sure that would be great. 1/9 seems to be just a bit more versatile especially with the long alloy bullets. 50gr Varmint Grenades so long they wont do well in a 1/12.

 

[RegionRat]

50gr Varmint Grenades so long they wont do well in a 1/12.

Agree.
Many folks will stretch the limits of their spin stability and push long bullets through slow twists. It can and does work for some, but it can also fail at lower altitudes or on days when pressure runs high, so I tend to use more twist margin.

Any composite bullet using bonded frangible materials, sintered alloys, epoxy resins, etc., will require testing in your rig at your distance. They can and do work, but in places they don't extrapolate well using the same math as traditional lead core bullets.

I use Varmint Grenades for some tasks because I live in a nanny state that bans lead bullets for hunting. At short range, their terminal ballistics are dramatic. I don't bother with them when I roam out of state simply because I have much better alternatives once I leave.

 

[ken158]

Is there a particular time of the year these animals need to be hunted?

Late May to whenever it gets so hot or windy you just cannot handle it. About the end of August just prior to hunting seasons, all the ranchers I know will not allow any more PD shooting if they, family or paid hunters will be out and about.