Ok I see that some guys claim that heating the necks to glow red with ruin the case by over annealing it. I have been playing around with annealing lately and my cases seem to be fine after heating the necks to glow red and my accuracy is still there. I am torching them in a pan of water but I don't knock them over I just let them cool. Guess my question is can u really over anneal the necks?
Over annealing
- Thread starter CZ550
- Start date
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
Apparently you can, the idea is to get a SLIGHT red cast or glow in low light. You probably don't want cherry red. I think that if they were severely over annealed on the neck/shoulder that seating a bullet could collapse the case somewhat. I apparently haven't over annealed one yet. Big thing is keeping the heat off of the body.
As long as the annealed area still shines in the light and not dull like it was sandblasted ,you are ok.I anneal till I just see it turning a scant red and go onto the next. Actually I have a ballistics edge machine and it is infinitly adjustable for timing,it is sweet.
For reloading applications, you can definitely over anneal. However, usually the cases aren't ruined, you just can't get the neck tension you need. You can renew them most of the time by running the cases through a die and then an expander several times to work harden them. If you are heating necks to a cherry red, you are not getting what you need from annealing. Some Tempilac will tell you just how hot you're getting them. It's a safe bet that you aren't getting any benefits from the procedure you're using.
Rick
Rick
dhighlan said:
The mechanical annealers don't water quench. I too allow the neck to air cool and have yet to experience any issues.
Greyfox said:
I'm heating the necks to red. And I can feel the difference when Seating bullets. It's a noticeably more consistent feel from the press.
I'm certainly no expert on the subject. But when researching, I saw some comments indicating that Tempilac was not that accurate.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:
1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.
2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.
3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.
4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.
There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:
1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.
2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.
3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.
4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.
Well I tried to over anneal 5 cases, I got the necks glowing hot. Shot them @ 400 yards, group measured just a touch over 1 inch for 4 of them the 5th round I unscrewed my muzzle brake because I have never fired the rifle without one and that shot was about 1inch low.
Just trying to justify spending 400-500 dollars on a annealing machine and I am having a hard time doing it.
Just trying to justify spending 400-500 dollars on a annealing machine and I am having a hard time doing it.
CZ550, so long as the case is safe I would heat the necks to whatever colour or temp that produces the results you want. IMO the machines make the job more consistent (I believe consistency is king), which is why I use one, but they don't make the job any safer or automatically mean that you have gotten the correct amount of heat into the neck for the right length of time to make a difference.
Tempilaq is useful to ensure that you haven't gotten too much heat into the body of the case, this is important if you are finding best results at the higher end of the time scale.
Personally I think you have cut to the chase - the case is safe so go shoot and look at the results on paper...don't get hung up on case A being at temp X for Y seconds...who knows your load might like soft necks..
Good luck.
Tempilaq is useful to ensure that you haven't gotten too much heat into the body of the case, this is important if you are finding best results at the higher end of the time scale.
Personally I think you have cut to the chase - the case is safe so go shoot and look at the results on paper...don't get hung up on case A being at temp X for Y seconds...who knows your load might like soft necks..
Good luck.
Some of this text is from a prior post, but maybe worth repeating in light of all the various views on annealing in this post. This is reflective of my experience annealing 308 Win cases, I have found that 223 cases require less time in the heat to anneal to temperature.
Annealing is not rocket science, but it requires common sense and IMO the use of a temperature indicating substance such as Tempilaq to monitor the heating of the brass. Red glow in dim light is not a scientific measurement of the brass reaching the proper temperature for annealing the necks.
On test cases, a small paint of 750 degree Tempilaq on the inside of the neck and a long paint with 450 degree Tempilaq on the outside of the case from a bit below the shoulder to the base will guide you in determining when proper temperature has reached.
In my setup using a Ballistic Edge Model 200 (discontinued now), the neck Tempilaq turns color in about 2 to 3 seconds and the 450 indicator changes slightly at the top of the body just at and below the shoulder, but not further down the case body, showing that the neck has reached annealing temperature and the body hasn't, a good thing. I drop the annealed brass into a water bucket below the unit, since the unit allows this based on its design and I don't have to be concerned with hot brass rolling around.
After this test, I just use the 750 Tempilaq in the necks, knowing all is fine. Brass is then cleaned in Stainless steel media, resized and loaded.
I believe that this method works fine and safely, and cases that have been done this way resizing is consistent and easy. This process and the temperatures indicated are what has been recommended by a number of manufacturer's of various annealing equipment, by both information available online as well as personal conversations that I have had with some designers of this type of equipment.
Annealing is not rocket science, but it requires common sense and IMO the use of a temperature indicating substance such as Tempilaq to monitor the heating of the brass. Red glow in dim light is not a scientific measurement of the brass reaching the proper temperature for annealing the necks.
On test cases, a small paint of 750 degree Tempilaq on the inside of the neck and a long paint with 450 degree Tempilaq on the outside of the case from a bit below the shoulder to the base will guide you in determining when proper temperature has reached.
In my setup using a Ballistic Edge Model 200 (discontinued now), the neck Tempilaq turns color in about 2 to 3 seconds and the 450 indicator changes slightly at the top of the body just at and below the shoulder, but not further down the case body, showing that the neck has reached annealing temperature and the body hasn't, a good thing. I drop the annealed brass into a water bucket below the unit, since the unit allows this based on its design and I don't have to be concerned with hot brass rolling around.
After this test, I just use the 750 Tempilaq in the necks, knowing all is fine. Brass is then cleaned in Stainless steel media, resized and loaded.
I believe that this method works fine and safely, and cases that have been done this way resizing is consistent and easy. This process and the temperatures indicated are what has been recommended by a number of manufacturer's of various annealing equipment, by both information available online as well as personal conversations that I have had with some designers of this type of equipment.
Red glow is bad????
Watch the video for the Giraud annealer. 4 seconds in the flame of two torches and they get real red.
For my needs I use a "deep impact socket" chucked in a cordless drill. The socket is a good heat-sink that protects the body and case and the head. I use a "Tempilstik" (750 degrees) to see how long it takes to heat the bottom of the shoulder where it will just melt the crayon. For my torch that's 6-8 seconds. After timing the first few cases I just count, using the metronome in my head, and then dump the annealed case in a heat resistant pan. I'm passing 30 reloads for the cases I've annealed this way.
Watch the video for the Giraud annealer. 4 seconds in the flame of two torches and they get real red.
For my needs I use a "deep impact socket" chucked in a cordless drill. The socket is a good heat-sink that protects the body and case and the head. I use a "Tempilstik" (750 degrees) to see how long it takes to heat the bottom of the shoulder where it will just melt the crayon. For my torch that's 6-8 seconds. After timing the first few cases I just count, using the metronome in my head, and then dump the annealed case in a heat resistant pan. I'm passing 30 reloads for the cases I've annealed this way.
I've read and heard so much BS about annealing over the years that I decided to do all my annealing using 700 degree Temp-L-Stick to mark areas of the brass, which will show you how hot your case is actually getting wherever you put it--theoretically. If you use a torch and allow the flame to get too near the marked area of the brass, you'll think it got to 700 degrees and has annealed--not so. You might be annealing to extend case life, or you might be annealing to restore ductility to the necks. I anneal for the latter reason. I had the accidental opportunity to prove to myself the fallacy of the former. I bought some Nosler .223 rem. brass after reading their claim to what seemed a ridiculous number of reloadings without annealing and without malfunctions or cracks in the neck. They performed as advertised and so did my Lapua brass in the same cartridge which was annealed using a single propane torch. You might also note that many short range BR shooters who load at the match do so over and over and over without annealing during the course of the season. If you start with good brass and do not work it hard--FL sizing after repeated shooting in a lawyer sized chamber--as opposed to a nice snug chamber would be working it hard--you get longer brass life. The only cases I have ever had fail at the neck were standard grade .30-30 brass that had been shot 15 times and annealed after every fifth firing. I've heard from friends who shoot ARs that they don't get the kind of case life they would like either, so I have been annealing every 5 and throwing them out after 20 firings. I figure there is a reason all the retailers sell broken case extractors for the AR..............
You CAN overanneal, depending on several factors: case thickness and height being the most important. You will more probably underanneal, especially if you use the old ineffective, inaccurate, indefensible method of standing the cases in water. I must have wasted years of my time doing that with a propane torch. It is easy to prove this simply by using a reamer to peel off the carbon layer inside the neck. If the inside is a bright brass color and the outside has begun to show a bit of copper color, it is easy to see that the brass has not annealed thoroughly. Standing a bunch of cases in water and waving a single propane torch over them will not roast all sides of the necks evenly, the water tends to wick away the heat from the brass. Again depending upon the size and height of the brass involved, this method may be a waste of time for both purposes. I've never melted any Temp-L-Stick below the shoulder when letting the cases cool in air--IF -- I had heated the necks quickly. Hotter torches/bigger flames will work differently.
Some years ago I bought and used for quite some time, a machine--then a fairly new invention-- from Mr. Ken Light. My unit used two torches and worked well on all my cases, which minimized the surface effect of heating and also minimized the draw down of the flame temperature of the propane torches. I gave the unit to my son when, because of injury, I thought I was not going to be able to drive again, which meant I was done going to the range.
I either experienced a miracle or a really great surgeon--take your pick and was able to get back to shooting in only a couple of years. I bought a mini-ductor induction heater after being shown how well induction heating works. With it I can almost instantly and thoroughly anneal most of my brass--some of the short fat cases take a little more time. With a little practice I found I could anneal a lot of the larger calibers of pistol brass, and only a quarter inch of the top of the case! Temp-L-stick on the cases shows NO surface effect like a flame heater. The only trouble is that it is not automatic so it takes a while to do a lot of cases and you have to rest the unit every couple of minutes. Not really problems for me. I have all the time in the world.................I heat the neck up to a nice brick red inside the area I want to anneal, something I never did with a single hand held torch.
You CAN overanneal, depending on several factors: case thickness and height being the most important. You will more probably underanneal, especially if you use the old ineffective, inaccurate, indefensible method of standing the cases in water. I must have wasted years of my time doing that with a propane torch. It is easy to prove this simply by using a reamer to peel off the carbon layer inside the neck. If the inside is a bright brass color and the outside has begun to show a bit of copper color, it is easy to see that the brass has not annealed thoroughly. Standing a bunch of cases in water and waving a single propane torch over them will not roast all sides of the necks evenly, the water tends to wick away the heat from the brass. Again depending upon the size and height of the brass involved, this method may be a waste of time for both purposes. I've never melted any Temp-L-Stick below the shoulder when letting the cases cool in air--IF -- I had heated the necks quickly. Hotter torches/bigger flames will work differently.
Some years ago I bought and used for quite some time, a machine--then a fairly new invention-- from Mr. Ken Light. My unit used two torches and worked well on all my cases, which minimized the surface effect of heating and also minimized the draw down of the flame temperature of the propane torches. I gave the unit to my son when, because of injury, I thought I was not going to be able to drive again, which meant I was done going to the range.
I either experienced a miracle or a really great surgeon--take your pick and was able to get back to shooting in only a couple of years. I bought a mini-ductor induction heater after being shown how well induction heating works. With it I can almost instantly and thoroughly anneal most of my brass--some of the short fat cases take a little more time. With a little practice I found I could anneal a lot of the larger calibers of pistol brass, and only a quarter inch of the top of the case! Temp-L-stick on the cases shows NO surface effect like a flame heater. The only trouble is that it is not automatic so it takes a while to do a lot of cases and you have to rest the unit every couple of minutes. Not really problems for me. I have all the time in the world.................I heat the neck up to a nice brick red inside the area I want to anneal, something I never did with a single hand held torch.
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