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Opinions.. too hot or just variances in published info for .308 ??

I was finally able to buy a Sierra manual after a longtime on back order. I am curious what the more experienced 308 reloaders think about this load. I am still a bit new to the reloading game.

Sierra 6th Edition paper manual lists max charge is 42.3gr. 1:10 twist 24" barrel. WLR Primer. Winchester case
Hodgdon website says max charge of 45.6 and Fed 210 primer but using 1:12 twist 24" barrel using Winchester case.

Are these too hot? Is it dangerous? Noticed primers are a bit flat but no sticky bolt .

Rifle - OEM Remington 700 SPS 20" bull barrel 1:10 twist
Brass: Winchester
Powder: IMR-4064 42.8gr
Primer: Fed 210
Bullet: Sierra 175gr HPBT Matchking
Velocity: 2557fps
Temp about 80 degrees. Humidity about 50%

I also have a load that is slightly less accurate with same specs above except 43.6gr. So.. still in range from Hodgdon site but even further above the Sierra manual maximum. This once has REALLY good SD and ES numbers but slightly worse groups. Velocity at 2604fps.

Opinions welcome. Anyone with that cool Quickload software that wants to run it though.. appreciated.

I did work up starting with the Hogdon info.. since I couldn't get the Sierra manual. Now that have the Sierra manual, my concern is if this is safe or not.
Scott
I think the 2 variables that dictate "where you end up" or "how much" powder you'll use in your load is.....

usable case capacity measured in grains of H2O and,

OAL of the loaded round.

Both will significantly affect Pressure. When I started using Quickload I played with these 2 variables and was amazed just how much they play an important role. It's impossible for a reloading manual to know what brass you're using and if you're jamming, jumping, loading mag length etc.

Their is a free online resource called Gordon's Reloading Tool similar to Quickload. Give it a try.
 
Both will significantly affect Pressure. When I started using Quickload I played with these 2 variables and was amazed just how much they play an important role. It's impossible for a reloading manual to know what brass you're using and if you're jamming, jumping, loading mag length etc.

A couple of points:

1) The powder and bullet company manuals' maximum loads are based on SAAMI spec barrels (bore/groove diameters) and a true SAAMI spec chamber. In many cases, this chamber will have considerably less freebore than a typical factory rifle chambered in that cartridge. It used to be said on this forum, and only partly in amusement, that Remington chambered its M700 308s so 'long' that they were either ideally suited to optimal seating depth for the Berger 185gn Juggernaut, or even a bit too long for that bullet. That sort of freebore length drops MVs and pressures substantially. The problem is that in a typical factory rifle you don't know what the manufacturer has given you in terms of chamber dimensions, although the chances of it being true SAAMI spec are very low indeed. (Well, you don't know until you start playing with a COAL gauge and find that your lighter/mid-weight bullets can't be seated in the case and remain near the rifling.)

2) Nearly all manuals list all components including the case. The small print says that if you deviate from those exact items, the data provided are invalid as far the powder/bullet company are concerned. This can be an issue for some cartridges in particular. Speer warns that 243 Win sees an unusually large range of case capacities by make and that its data apply solely to Winchester brass. Any deviation can cause substantially raised pressures making the data invalid. Speer likewise used Israeli IMI 223 Rem brass in its loads data for many years as it was the thickest walled / lowest capacity commercial brass on the US market, so it was unlikely a handloader would use its data in anything with lower capacities. As you say, the manual compilers cannot know what brass (or primer for that matter which can also have a significant peak pressure effect) the handloader will use, but as I said you're on your own as soon as you change anything.

3) There is a misconception around pressure vs COAL and modelling this with QuickLOAD or GRT. Internal ballistics programs want the COAL that sees the bullet just off the lands as that allied to the case water overflow capacity is the initial chamber combustion chamber volume. In many cases, people seat the bullet to a shorter COAL than that point, for magazine fit or other reasons. Seating a long bullet to 2.800" in a 308 where the chamber defined COAL is say 3.00" won't increase pressures, although it might not leave enough room for the powder charge. If it changes pressures at all, it'll reduce them. When Viht powders were first introduced into the UK market getting on for 45 years ago, the company did a very useful free loading guide on heavy paper that folded up 20 which ways like regional road maps sold in roadside filling stations. It covered much more than just loads for the limited number of cartridges and powders included (all rifle IIRC) and included a pressure barrel measured table of pressures / MVs for a standard 7.62 NATO load using Lapua components and Viht powder in which the bullet was seated progressively deeper, by what increment I can't now remember. Pressures and MVs stayed constant throughout the changes until the final (deepest) bullet seating position/COAL when pressure dropped. (Note, small capacity pistol cartridge rounds, especially 9X19mmP, display the exact opposite behaviour and there pressures do rise as bullets are seated deeper, potentially dangerously so in some cartridge and loads combinations.)


Incidentally, whilst companies like Sierra use a SAAMI compliant test chamber/barrel, the MVs listed in the tables sometimes come from a factory rifle and barrel, its details listed on the introductory page for the cartridge alongside dimensions and cartridge history, uses and so on. This is because once handloaders started to acquire chronographs, there was almost always a mismatch between the loads table data and the actual results users obtained from their own rifles, the latter being almost invariably lower. This again was due to the mismatch between factory chamber and bore dimensions and the 'tighter' SAAMI or CIP specifications. So the practice of measuring actual maximum safe loads (or to whatever discount from maximum the company decides to adopt) and then retesting MVs in a typical user's rifle was started and is now very common. Not all companies do this and not all tell you what the MVs are obtained in. Sierra does and tells you the rifle. Nosler tells you it was a Wiseman (or whatever) test barrel which means this is unmodified SAAMI spec barrel results. Lyman appears to use both sometimes for a single cartridge as in 7X57mm Mauser where the firearm changes within single tables. Firearms shown in the introduction are 'Universal receiver' ie the lab set-up using a proper pressure test barrel which one has to assume is SAAMI spec, or an actual firearm in this cartridge's case a 29-inch barrel Mauser 95 service rifle. No pressures are listed for the latter, only MVs and the compilers tell you that they don't know what they were loading to pressure-wise, but that the loads were safe in it and similar older models.
 
Thanks for all the input. I have read it all carefully and tried to absorb it. Laurie.. well reasoned and articulated points. Thank you!

Today I took a few of the rounds out to the range. I also took some M118LR for comparison. Oddly, I noticed velocity increased 50fps from what I measured before. Old velocity average was 2557. (For comparison, the M118LR velocity was also 2550 - same as every time I measure it). Today my handload ran 2600.
Today was also 65 degrees 80% humidity. Original testing was 80 degrees and about 65% humidity. So.. I didn't expect that. This ammo has sat in an ammo can with desiccate in my home office for about 18 months or so. Not sure if that matters or not.

Anyway.. in looking at the brass, I can see two things different than the M118LR. Primers are flatter (don't know what primer is in the M118LR. In my load it was Fed 210). And the primer mark is a bit deeper. Both have some cratering. (I understand common in OEM Remington 700's).

Bolt lift was fine. Extraction was fine. Don't see any lines on the outside of the case.

I don't see any marks on the rims that look odd. My handload did "feel" a bit hotter with recoil. But maybe I am missing something or just don't know what I am looking at. Or maybe my pictures are clear enough.. so much internet info.. <groan> lol.

Here are some pictures. Winchester brass is my load and LC is M118LR of course.
 

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Thanks for all the input. I have read it all carefully and tried to absorb it. Laurie.. well reasoned and articulated points. Thank you!

Today I took a few of the rounds out to the range. I also took some M118LR for comparison. Oddly, I noticed velocity increased 50fps from what I measured before. Old velocity average was 2557. (For comparison, the M118LR velocity was also 2550 - same as every time I measure it). Today my handload ran 2600.
Today was also 65 degrees 80% humidity. Original testing was 80 degrees and about 65% humidity. So.. I didn't expect that. This ammo has sat in an ammo can with desiccate in my home office for about 18 months or so. Not sure if that matters or not.

Anyway.. in looking at the brass, I can see two things different than the M118LR. Primers are flatter (don't know what primer is in the M118LR. In my load it was Fed 210). And the primer mark is a bit deeper. Both have some cratering. (I understand common in OEM Remington 700's).

Bolt lift was fine. Extraction was fine. Don't see any lines on the outside of the case.

I don't see any marks on the rims that look odd. My handload did "feel" a bit hotter with recoil. But maybe I am missing something or just don't know what I am looking at. Or maybe my pictures are clear enough.. so much internet info.. <groan> lol.

Here are some pictures. Winchester brass is my load and LC is M118LR of course.
Every lot of bullets, primers, cases, and powder are slightly different. Rifles vary even more - the chamber size, headspace, bore roughness and bore diameter vary to different amounts. Only your rifle can tell you what is too hot for your combination.

Published data also varies, in part, because of their acceptable level of risk - nobody wants to put out loads that are going to fail in most rifles - that would make the customer service staff work overtime. More moderate loads keep the phone from ringing.

Your ejector marks look like most of my max loads that are safe enough to last 10 reloads without loose primer pockets, or head separation, but you should test that for your gun. The case head is expanding, or brass wouldn’t move into the ejector, but how much you’ll have to find out for yourself. Measuring case head expansion with a .0001” micrometer can give an early warning that the case won’t make it to ten reloads, but it’s just one bit of evidence to consider.

However, your primers may not be far from blowing out into the firing pin hole. If it’s an old rifle, you might have a weak firing pin spring, your hole is oversized, or that brand of primer just doesn’t handle the pressure as well as the cases. That can disable your gun if it happens and you don’t have a handy way of cleaning metal out of your bolt.

The downside to running a load that kills cases in only 3 or 5 loads is you’re much closer to some moisture or a really hot day causing a head separation that disables your gun. It happens regularly and every time I have to chuckle because the shooter knew he was pushing it and it caught up to him.
 
Thanks for the advice Taper. Clearly I don't know what the ejector marks look like. Can you point them out? Which picture.. and which cartridge(s) and where on the rim? I look at them under bright light with a magnifying glass and I can't figure it out.
 
These are ejector swipes (marks). I do not see ANY on your brass so no idea what TP is referring to.

It does look like you have a large firing pin hole that's allow primer flow. Not uncommon
 

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These are ejector swipes (marks). I do not see ANY on your brass so no idea what TP is referring to.

It does look like you have a large firing pin hole that's allow primer flow. Not uncommon
Thanks!!!!! Maybe he saw some fuzziness in the photo but looking in a magnifying glass in good light, I couldn’t see anything

Thanks for the great example pic.
 

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