Opinions, Ground Hog match format reverse order

[dreever]

I understand some of the ranges are going with a reverse order format to facilitate better being able to see bullet holes at 500 before the mirage gets up.
I understand the reasoning, but in my opinion it makes for an anti-climatic match since we all know "it isn't over till the fat lady sings at 500".
If you shoot 500 first when the targets come back you can pretty much narrow it down to three or four names who will win the match baring some monumental foul up at the closer yardages. So if you shoot a mediocre score at 500 you might as well save the ammo and pack it up for an early drive home. It does not sound like much fun to me.

At Shippensburg we have no plans on changing our format to a reverse order believing that it's better for everyone to feel they still have a chance going into the final stage at 500 meters. I for one like being able to say "I'll try and make points up at 500". It's pretty tough to believe that you can say "I'll try and make points up at 200", and actually believe it's possible.

How do the rest of you feel?

Danny

 

[tripcrow]

Don’t think anyone has gone to longest first all the time. I think the match director makes that decision based on the weather report for that day.

You’re right it does take away from some of the suspense. But on the other hand it also takes away a lot of luck and having a spotter with the right pair of eyes from determining the winner. While there is a knack to reading and shooting in mirage, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about people needing to see where they’re shooting if the best that day is to win. I saw 2 past winners score zeroes at the longest range last St. Thomas shoot because they had no idea where their bullets were going. Sure many of us have lost and won matches because of being on a certain relay when the wind let down or picked up or rain came or even just a cloud. But those things are part of the game that can’t be predicted like blinding late morning mirage can be. Why call a match because the fog is so bad you can’t see the targets? How is that different? You can’t see the targets in either case.

As to people leaving after their first relay because they shot bad at the longest range and figure they can’t make it up, I haven’t seen any of that yet. But if a guy that’s out of it doesn’t want to shoot against himself that’s his business. He paid his fee and it doesn’t hurt anybody if he does leave. It’s not like he didn’t show because it was windy, raining, or cold.

I say let the match director decide the order of shooting based on the weather.

 

[dreever]

Bill,

I agree that sometimes having a good spotter with the right pair of eyes helps tremendously. On the other hand a bad call from a spotter can hurt you a lot. I don't use a spotter, that way I'm the only one I can blame for a bad call.
I agree it's real nice to be able to see your bullet holes at 500, but I still contend that shooting in reverse order takes all the fun out of competing because the matches outcome is generally known after the first stage.

As far as calling a match because of fog being different, well yes it is different. If you can't see the targets or bank, it becomes a safety issue for the range officer. A person, a family dog, or a deer could walk out there and if the range officer can't see them to call an immediate cease fire a tragedy could occur. One such tragedy, and a club is done. Sued out of existence, and not just for people. Put little Johnnie on the witness stand sobbing about losing his furry best friend, and see what the jury awards him.

I agree, a format change is up to the discretion of the match director/match committee. Same goes for increasing the ten ring size to allow scores to inflate. Ground Hog Matches have no sanctioning body, or universal rules committee to standardize format,target size,course of fire,rifle classes, etc. However on the other hand there is no $40-$50 membership fee to belong to aforementioned sanctioning bodies which perhaps is one reason that the sport is growing in popularity. To shoot NBRSA, IBS, Williamsport, etc. you have to belong to each organization. Get's expensive fast.

So you other guys out there, what do you think?

Danny

 

[tenring]

Danny & Bill - Whether the match begins at 100, 200, 300, 500 or more, its still a level playing field - excepting for the shooter who cannot afford a 2K spotting scope or his spotter who cannot find holes,who,me??). We must contend with conditions, learn to shoot thru them. Wind and mirage are problems as the day progresses. But that is part of the challenge. To begin a match at the longest yardage certainly would create a psychological barrier to the guy or gal who cannot find the 5 ring at 500. I agree with your statement:

"I still contend that shooting in reverse order takes all the fun out of competing because the matches outcome is generally known after the first stage."

I do have one suggestion: In a match with multiple relays, it makes sense to begin perhaps a half hour before advertised time,i.e. begin at 8:30 instead of 9 AM) when the first two relays are filled up. This could help somewhat with conditions for the last yardage shot. Shooters arriving at 9 AM,very few) would still have plenty of time to set up.

 

[FrankintheLaurelMts]

I am the range master at the Mifflin Co groundhog shoots...there are about six or so shoots in PA and Maryland. Each and everyone is different..some shoot 100-300-500, some 200-300-500, some 400-500-600 others shoot 100-200-400..I believe that is basically determined by how big of a facility they have and the conditions based on weather. We all also use a different target..NO ONE seems to care what anyone else is doing at their range..I attend a few others and actually enjoy the differences between them..it doesn't matter what is done by anyone at their range..everyone shoots at the same target on that day. We've experimented with colors, sizes, dots or no dots, order of fire and just about everything else but one things for sure..EVERYTHING AT OUR MATCH IS PRESENTED TO THE SHOOTERS AND VOTED ON, EVERYTHING..if that's what they want that's what they get!!!! What you do at your range is up to you, not me..if I don't like what your doing I can either choose to shoot or not shoot the match.. We all seem to have a major problem with the factory shooters..each club seems to treat it differently and that's their business..again my choice if I want to shoot it or not. We've actually changed the order that our factory guns compete at recently, to make it easier on the target setters and to speed up the match. And that comment -- it's over at the 500 yard distance..your dreaming if you believe that..we have lots of guys who shoot 45-49 points at the 500 yard distance and fall apart at 200 or 300, I am one of them so I know it hain't over til' it's over..that little .250 in 10X ring at 200 yards is no push over for anyone.

SO, I for one don't want to see them all the same..I like change and difference, variety is the spice of life! I'm looking forward to shooting St. Thomas next weekend..it's different than ours and I enjoy the difference... that's why I choose to go and shoot it..I'm also planning on shooting at the Lawerence Co. shoot, it's a little longer but I'll adapt maybe to 400-500-600 yards..there's only one that I'll never shoot at but that's my choice..so if you like what's done, enjoy the matches..if not..then don't go. FRANK LITAVISH range master at MCSC

 

[dreever]

Well Frank, it seems I've ruffled your feathers and put you on the defensive. That was not my intent. I simply wanted to know how the various shooters felt about shooting in reverse order.
We tried it one time at Shippensburg on our fun shoot day, and to a man everyone present felt it was anti-climatic. We knew the overall winner when we looked at the first targets.
We also tried shooting at 200/300/400 once, and all shooters present said they prefered 200/300/500. So in fact our shooters made the decision also.

I certainly would like to know the name of "The range you'll never shoot". Perhaps you could e-mail or PM me the name and why?

I have no problems with every ones rules, yardages, and targets being different. Keeps things from getting boring. I've shot Mifflin from time to time with no complaints, so don't take any of this personally as an afront to Mifflin or yourself.

Although I wish we could all come to some agreement on the factory class that everyone could live with. Are Coopers, 40X's, Savage Precision Varminters and the new F-class, and the Sako TRG considered factory rifles? The Sako TRG is a sore spot for some who shoot our range, but you can't make everyone happy.
The debate goes on.

I don't think any of us want a National organization governing our Varmint shoots, with the ensuing mandatory dues and membership.

So to go back to the original question. Do the responding shooters to this thread personally like shooting in reverse order from farthest to closest, or do you feel it's anti climatic?

Danny

 

[spike]

Dreaver you seem to be directing your thoughts toward Mifflin,,don’t know why?) Since this is the only group that shoots a match with 500 yards first as far as we know. Has any body ever asked you to change your format? It is great that you like your shoots with the 200 first, but why make such statements about other clubs formats. You state “but in my opinion it makes for an anti-climatic match since we all know "it isn't over till the fat lady sings at 500".You couldn’t be more wrong.

The reverse order was voted on by the shooters last year at the beginning of the match, at a shooters meeting. It was a unanimous decision to reverse order. Mirage conditions can be bad but the worst condition is the wind. The conditions in the afternoon can change three to four times at a relay making it hard to combat not only the mirage but, also the wind factor. The wind can move your bullets so far and with the mirage it was almost impossible to even hit the target or even see your holes with our 2K spotting scope. You never knew what your score was until it post scored and posted on the board.

You state “At Shippensburg we have no plans on changing our format to a reverse order believing that it's better for everyone to feel they still have a chance going into the final stage at 500 meters. I for one like being able to say "I'll try and make points up at 500". It's pretty tough to believe that you can say "I'll try and make points up at 200", and actually believe it's possible. Nothing can be further from the truth. I have seen a lot of people get lulled into a false sense of security, including me and loose the match at 200 because of the pressure. You also state that the match is decided at 500 with only two or three people in contention to win. This is also not a true statement. I have seen matches won and/or lost on the 300 yard target because someone is under the gun to get a good score again and the wind or mirage conditions have changed again.

We Guys and Gals have often hung in there in a match that we have not had the highest score at 500 yards and still placed or even won. The most important thing at these shoots in my opinion,Spikes wife) is that you should not only compete with others but with yourself to improve your skills even if as you say “So if you shoot a mediocre score at 500 you might as well save the ammo and pack it up for an early drive home. It does not sound like much fun to me.” Sounds like you have a problem hanging in there till the fat lady sings until the matches are won or lost. Some times it is harder to make up one point at 200 than 3 points at 500 and the fun begins.

Maybe at the next shoot we will ask the shooters if they want to hang the groundhogs sleeping,laying down), or on their heads. Would that make it easier for them also? I don’t know why you are grinding this axe about Mifflin groundhog shoot format? There has been only one perfect score there so I thing the targets are sized just right for their conditions.

We have shot at three different kinds of groundhog shoot Mifflin, St Thomas, and Southfork. The only thing I don’t like is the no sighter thing and that is only my personal view even though some love it and that is why I don’t shoot there.

These views are our personal ones. We do not speak for Mifflin but we do shoot and help out with the shoots there. Shoot what ever way you want but keep on shooting.

 

[dreever]

Frank, Spike, et al;

How can I spell this out.
Read my original post again. I never mentioned any ranges by name.
I have no Axe to grind with Mifflin.
I have shot Mifflin in the past several times myself and enjoyed it. I have friends from that neck of the woods. Jason Baney, Abe Henry, Boyd Heaton, etc.
You guys are reading more into this than there is.

This is how this post came up. This past Thursday I was shooting at Shippensburg with Tripcrow who shoots at Mifflin, St. Thomas, Mayberry, and Shippensburg. He told me that Mifflin, and also St. Thomas have shot in reverse order to alleviate some environmental problems. We discussed how we felt about this change and had differing opinions. Being curious I posted the original question to see how others felt who have tried this change. That's it, that's all there is, or ever was to it.!!!!!!!!!

Why the frigging third degree? This rhetoric leads me to believe that you guys have a problem with me, or with Shippensburg. If that's correct just come out and say so for crying out loud. What is the problem with a simple question? Why don't you just answer I like it/or don't like it because ____________. That's all I wanted to hear in the first place.

So what's really got your panties in a bunch?

Danny

 

[tripcrow]

Danny, not to get your panties in a bunch. But to clarify a misconception you and some others seem to have. You said:

“Same goes for increasing the ten ring size to allow scores to inflate.”

BINGO!
Target measurements are from outside edge of ring.
10 ring 8 ring

Ship’s 205, 315, 546 yds 1.3” 3.9”
St. Thomas 200, 300, 400 .9” 2.7”
Mifflin 200 .9” 2.9”
Mifflin 300 1.25” 3.2”
Mifflin 500 2” 3.9”


So as you can see Ship’s 200 & 300 targets are the biggest around. Even after allowing for the 46 extra yards at 500, Ship’s target is more generous from 7 out and has a much bigger 5 point groundhog than Mifflin’s. And Mayberry’s 200 & 300 are even smaller I believe? Seeing how you been shooting just at Ship, this probably helps explain why you feel 200 & 300 are such gimmies.

When I got home after last Saturday’s shoot I super-imposed my Mifflin targets over a Ship target and came up with the same score of 148. Loosing a point at 500 and gaining a point at 200. Even if one was to allow for a wider spread over the 1.5” 500 yard group it still came in at a 146-147 Ship score. Isn’t that a course record at Ship? But a 148 4X only earns one 3rd high for the year so far at Mifflin and 2 points and a bunch of Xs off Mifflin’s record. So as you can see Ship’s lower scores are not the result of the other clubs shooting 500 yards first sometimes and certainly not from having more generous targets as this shows. IMO they’re most likely the result of the low turn outs.

 

[dreever]

Bill,

Now I am confused. I always thought 2 inches was larger than 1.3 inches.
A .9 ten ring at 200 yards is still easier to shoot into than a 1.3 inch ten ring at 547 yards. Conditions, be it wind mirage, etc. and minute driver error will always be magnified at longer yardages.
If you think our scores are down because of what you consider to be low attendance I'd argue that point by saying that Shippensburg is just one tough range, not to mention the fact that that extra 47 yards at 500 makes a difference also. Since the range record is a 146 held by four different people using three different calibers I'd say the scores are not to far down.

Danny

 

[tripcrow]

“Now I am confused”
I know, I know, buddy. It’s Ok. Between all those numbers and all them dam furry blue dogs running in front of your targets when you’re trying to shoot, who wouldn’t be?

Just kidding there Dan.

 

[dreever]

Blue Dogs??? The only Blue Dog I know is Clifford. LOL! It's good to lighten up this thread.
See you Thursday Bill.

Danny

 

[yat3b35]

I shoot at Shippensburg with Danny and I know why he doesn't want to shoot 500 first! He knows I don't see good and he beats me everytime at 500, so if I was to be able to see good in the early part of the match I might,might, I say be able to beat him. LOL hey Danny