one ppc barrel, fireforming.

[Frankr]

I know this has been hashed over a dozen times, i have skimed over it mostly.
but now that i have a new 6ppc barrled action in my hands(waiting on stock).
I have been wondering what is the best way to fireform my brass with out damage to my one and only barrel?
can i do the pistol powder and cream of wheat "thing" with out damage to my barrel or do i just shoot it as i allways have in the past?

 

[potatoe]

I'm no PPC expert, but I've spoke with a bunch about my build. I've yet to hear of anyone using COW method. I'm fire forming my PPC brass with 27gr+ of IMR 8208 and jamming the 70gr BT's .020. All of them have turned out nice so far.

 

[Frankr]

Thanks potatoe, yea thats how i have allways done it..works well..
but i have seen others do all kinds of stuff..someone was forming dasher cases with the cow thing..I just dont know about putting that stuff down the barrel..the only good barrel..if i had a fireform barrel i would try it and would not care.

 

[markr]

It has been my experience that 6PPC brass formed from 22 Russian Lapua brass...needs to be fired at least 2 and usually 3 times in order for it to be truely fireformed to your chamber and to give optimum accuracy in your rifle. The pistol powder and cow will get it started but it will not have maximum capacity until it is fired several times...Your mileage may vary.

 

[potatoe]

Thanks potatoe, yea thats how i have allways done it..works well..
but i have seen others do all kinds of stuff..someone was forming dasher cases with the cow thing..I just dont know about putting that stuff down the barrel..the only good barrel..if i had a fireform barrel i would try it and would not care.

I hear ya. It seems you and I try the same cartridge with every new gun we build. I'm not really looking to 'save' my first PPC barrel. I'll smoke it up in no time, just trying to learn it

 

[Frankr]

This isn't my first ppc...i have had 3 22ppc's and 2 6ppc's..i hope i get this one to shoot. no just kidden
2 of my 22ppc's shot great..burned up the barrels on them, one barrel had over 1,800 rounds on it..one 22 ppc never got it to shoot well,burned up the barrel trying..i never had any luck getting either of my 6 ppc's to shoot well.. i dont think they shoot well unless they are in the low to mid .100's.. I have 3 6 BR's that would out shoot any of them most days of the week..lol .. they say that is not suposto be..so i had another 6 ppc spun up.
once i get my stock i will post a pic.. but i can tell you the borden built rimrock RBLPRE action and kreiger barrel look just great.

 

[fdshuster]

Frank: After bumping the shoulders back on the 220 Russian brass, just enough to chamber, and outside neck turning (if necessary/ have both .262" & .272" chamber necks), I have always, (since 1998) loaded & fired with 26 grs. of H322, as suggested by the 'smith who did the first chambering. One perfectly formed case with that first firing, and surprisingly excellent groups also.

After the first firing when the case is fully blown out I am able to use the normal charge of 28 to 28.5 grs. of N133. Works for me.

 

[Frankr]

thanks frank, yep that is how i have done it, with H322...i do feel that once the cases are run through a fire and size cycle thay seem more consistant.

 

[vern]

I have been using the pistol powder method (no bullet) with NO cream of wheat since about 2000.
You wont harm your barrel if you dont over heat, that is fire more than about 5 shots at a time maybe 10 and let it cool.
Same as with regular fire forming.
I use this method because It allows me to blow out the necks and shoulders so I have an accurate place to turn to.
For me I expand the necks and just run the cases through my regular sizing die (without reducing the necks) to make sure they will chamber fill to shoulder with bullseye top with wax and fire.
Now that I finally have a couple of extra barrels I use one of them for fire forming. I checked with my action maker as to what they thought about the number of rounds I could fire without hurting the action. Since mine is SS with no insert they gave me a temp that I couldnt reach if I tried.
So I usually fire about 50 rnds and then let it cool.
I do believe there is an article written by speedy somewhere on this site that details 3 ways of fire forming brass.

 

[Frankr]

thank you vern.
where do i get the wax..
you say fill to shoulder with bulleye? aprox how many grains is that?
wont the wax be hard to clean out of my barrel?

 

[vern]

I bought mine at the hobby or craft shop. I is in sheets in the candle making section.
It looks like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEEKEEPING-10-SHEETS-MED-WAX-FOUNDATION-/170626832602?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ba26d8da#ht_500wt_1413
Although a lot of people get a sheet or 2 from the dentist. I got 5 sheets some years ago and am finally down to 1 sheet. Lasts a long time.
Cleaning has never been a problem for me. The was pretty much melts and blows out. I was really surprised the first time I did it looking down the barrel.
When I first started doing it this way I was over 2 hours to the range for fireforming.
I was also given a way I could do it relatively quietly INSIDE the house so I didnt have to travel for the initial fireforming.
AS to the grains, I dont know I always just take my powder measure and crank it up until the was is just below the edge of the neck.

Now days I have a friend that lives 10 min away in the country so I go to his back yard and point the rifle up in the air to fireform still using the wax method.
I tried the cream of wheat and 3gr of bullseye method on a couple of cases once and was not impressed with the results.
One piece of advice is make sure before you start priming or filling cases that you have them set to the right size in order to chamber. I forgot about that once and had to redo everything because they would not chamber in the raw form.

 

[Frankr]

Thanks again vern. im going to give it a try.

 

[BoydAllen]

Expand the .220 Russian (lube case necks and mandrel) to 6mm, and neck turn with enough cut depth on the shoulder so that there is feel when you close the bolt, but not much effort is required. This is a trial and error thing. Clean the cases, taking care that no lube remains, inside or out. Size the case necks with at least .003 neck tension. Prime the cases with Federal primers (They have softer cups.) Fill cases with as much 133 ,322, or benchmark as you can fit behind the bullet without compressing unduly, and seat bullets long enough that they are well marked by the rifling. Fire these in any barrel that you like. They will not hurt a thing. As usual, don't get in too much of a hurry, because that may elevate barrel temp. to an undesirable level. If it is a new barrel, you can combine fire forming cases and breaking in the barrel. I don't spend too much time on barrel break in, no more than five or six one shot and clean cycles, and then a few three shot groups. Twenty cases is plenty to start with. If you are one of those I plan on getting set up to load at the range later guys, get over it. Get set up now. It is really no big deal at all. Ask if you need help. After fire forming, trim to 1.490, lightly debur, and very carefully chamfer. Don't bump back case shoulders on the next sizing because the shoulder to head dimension will not be at its maximum. Wait till you see that measurement stabilize, and don't shoot top node loads for the first 2-3 firings. You can go warm, just not the hottest. I like to to a pressure series with a single case that I reload after each shot, and keep as a reference for maximum case "headspace". That way my main set of cases should be more uniform. I try to keep them as much alike as I can, and usually have a practice set of 5-6 for trying out ideas. This is a very common method that has been in use, for decades by hundreds, if not thousands of shooters. There are other ways, but this is probably the safest for the one barrel guy. You may be surprised as to how well your fire forming loads group. This is not always the case, but it has happened more than once.

 

[Frankr]

well i really could not find any wax sheets..but i did get a block of wax. i will have to cut strips off it. i also found in the arts&craft strore,candle wax buttons,at $1.00 for 15, they are kind of like dime size wax rounds. they will work very well..I had to order some new cases..I found some i had loaded up with bullets to be fire formed in a .262nk chamber, necks allready turned and ready to fire form the tradional way. so i pulled the bullets,knocked out the primes, bumped the shoulder so they would chamber with some crush. put in a new primer and filled to the bottom of the neck with bullseye. then i took a small piece of (charman)toilet paper and stuffed in the neck,kind of made a paper plug patch, stuffed it in there very tight, was very easy to do..I taped a old paper towle tube to the end of the barrel, wraped the end of it with a towl and stuck it down into a garbage can in the basement,inserted the round and fired,,HOLY COW!!.... blew the paper towl tube right off, burned through the towl and was full throttle LOUD! as loud as fireing one off at the range,,no ear plugs in and waiting for the neighbor's to call or come see what happend..lol. well once the smoke cleard and i got my whits about me. i extracted the case..I have a very nice fully formed case..it chambers like a case that is on the edge of needing FL sized...so it will work with the wax or with a toilet paper plug..im leaning tward the toilet paper.. so once i get some new brass thats how i will fireform,then i will do my neck turning..
Now how do i go about shooting them in the basement?

does the roll of insulation work?

I think by the way the case chambers i was a little on the hot side with the powder, i think i could back off a little bit, but at the same time im sure its a fully formed to the chamber, i think after the first real fireing it will need FL sized and ready for action.

I like it..

 

[vern]

Yep the insulation works great.
Sounds about like dropping a couple of heavy books on the floor.

 

[Frankr]

thanks vern, i guess if off to get a roll of insulation,,big roll..
i read in the ppc pages that it is the #1 reccomended way to fire form..
I will try it and see how it goes..but it will be nice to not have to put all them rounds down the tube to get some cases running..but i know i will get another barrel some day.

 

[BoydAllen]

I am not sure where you got the idea that the roll of insulation method is common. It is not. Most shooters just fire form at the range, and since they work with small numbers of cases, because virtually all load at the range, doing 20 cases, and then reloading and shooting formed brass is no big deal....really. What I hear from some new PPC shooters on the internet is that they plan on getting to loading at the range some time in the future, but that they are not set up for it. As long as you have a powder measure that is accurately resettable (micrometer, etc), you are already set up to load at the range. I don't know if this applies to you, but if it does, I can help you get over any perceived hurdles. Good luck.

 

[Frankr]

No boyd i have everything i need to load at the range, have had for over ten years, but im allways aquiring new and better stuff.. yea most of my rifles even my 6BR's only have like 20 - 30 match cases..and maybe 40 set up for varmint hunting,,,But it would be nice to have 100 fire formed cases without haveing put them rounds down my barrel..I will get in trouble for this im sure,,but at a group match(even club) no problem..But at a club score match,them 30 cal guys wont give you time to reload or clean your barrel between relays..lol..I learned alot about the wind in a score match,,But even the 6ppc guys who were wining were all pre-loaded..and i was the only guy on the line cleaning his barrel and rushing to reload..I will not do it again..I put like 60 rounds through my 6BR with out cleaning..Im a group shooter..I clean every 6- 16 rounds..my guns are set up and tuned to shoot on a clean barrel..But you wont get away with it at a club score match..I really need a score barrel. or when this barrel starts to die, use it..
Boyd try it one time and see for your self.. fill the case to the bottom of the neck with bullseye,stuff in some toilet paper to keep the powder in, chamber it and fire..you will get a fully fireformed case with out ever putting a bullet down the barrel..it worked as advertised..

 

[BoydAllen]

I have done cases that way. It works, but frankly I am more worried about the high flame temp of Bullseye (high nitroglycerine content) than barrel wear from bullets. That is not what wears out barrels. If it were, they would be more worn at the muzzle, where the velocity peaks. Before I had a fire forming barrel, I just did as I have described. If I was really concerned about barrel life I would just buy some of the new Norma fully formed 6PPC brass, and turn it. It costs more, but if you count the components used for fire forming, probably not much, if any. The newest cases have harder heads. Sounds like you need a 30 BR barrel. I have a friend that I really trust, who is very careful, and has good things of his own. When he got a brand new 6PPC rifle, I simply put on my fire forming barrel and loaned him my rifle for a quick turn around to the range. Worked good. As far as club score matches go, I think that they get shooters involved that would never make it to a group match, and I admire those who put them on.

 

[ddkearney]

Boyd,
I've always fireformed by shooting bullets, too. Wondering - How critical is it for the fire-forming 6ppc barrel (chamber reamerwise) to be a match for the barrel on a different gun? I have an old barrel that I can use; except for possibly the neck area, will the case come out fine to use in other 6ppc chambers/barrels?
Don