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One for the AB experts...

I am building two 6mm rifles, a Dasher and a 6-284.

It is time to order some Berger bullets, and I am stuck.

1. the 105 gr Hybrid has a G7 of .278
2. the 115 gr VLD Target has a G7 of .279.

The Hybrid starts out with 150fps +/- MV advantage. At a thousand yards or more, which would be the better choice for competition?

thank you,

Rich
 
I am building two 6mm rifles, a Dasher and a 6-284.

It is time to order some Berger bullets, and I am stuck.

1. the 105 gr Hybrid has a G7 of .278
2. the 115 gr VLD Target has a G7 of .279.

The Hybrid starts out with 150fps +/- MV advantage. At a thousand yards or more, which would be the better choice for competition?

thank you,

Rich

My guess is that Berger is working on a redesign of that 115gr. bullet or one in that weight class as we speak, perhaps one is in beta testing right now. I expect it will have a G7 BC between .31 and .32 .
it will likely need a 1/7" twist.

Scott Parker
 
I must be missing something....? With what you posted there is no difference in BC but you can push the lighter round faster so you can stay supersonic longer and further. I think the most important thing is how does the rifle shoot the projectile? How does it group?
 
http://www.bergerbullets.com/ballistics/

This is the berger bullets online ballistics calculator. All you have to do is select a bullet and plug in your numbers.

The weight of the bullet is part of the BC equation, so even if you have different weight bullets, if the BC is the same, the performance will be the same.

As Eternal Student said, with near identical BC's, you will have to find which bullet your rifle likes best.
 
My guess is that Berger is working on a redesign of that 115gr. bullet or one in that weight class as we speak, perhaps one is in beta testing right now. I expect it will have a G7 BC between .31 and .32 .
it will likely need a 1/7" twist.

Scott Parker

I asked Bryan Litz if he was ever going to make a hybrid 115gr and I believe he said that the 115 was a poor bullet due to the length/diameter ratio. At some point a bullet becomes too long to shoot in a given diameter. For example, a 300 gr, 6mm bullet would be hard to keep stable and thus is a bad idea. If I remember correctly, he felt that the 115 was approaching that threshold of difficult to keep stable. Consequently, he was not going to be re-designing it.

Since this was a couple of years ago, my memory could be off. Of course, there are others at Berger who make the production decisions, a hard "no" may not be the final decision.

-Trevor
 
I must be missing something....? With what you posted there is no difference in BC but you can push the lighter round faster so you can stay supersonic longer and further. I think the most important thing is how does the rifle shoot the projectile? How does it group?

If that were so all the long range guys would be shooting lightest bullets, not the heaviest.
 
I got my bullet data from Berger's reloading manual.

Responses like this latest one from VaRandy are what the question refers to; bullet weight VS BC downrange flight characteristics...
 
If that were so all the long range guys would be shooting lightest bullets, not the heaviest.

Not true. When loaded to equal pressure, the higher BC bullet will almost always exhibit lesser wind deflection at some given distance, even though it will have lower muzzle velocity. In most cases, the higher BC bullet will be the heavier and longer of the two, and therefore also be the one with lower velocity. Unless two bullets are relatively close in terms of BC, you generally not push the lighter bullet fast enough to overcome the BC deficit. For example, you can easily use a ballistics calculator to estimate how fast a .308 Sierra 155 gr (2156, G7 BC = .237) bullet needs to leave the muzzle to exhibit similar wind deflection (10 mph full value) at 1000 yd to the .308 185 Juggernaut with a with muzzle velocity of 2750 fps, or a 200.20X with a muzzle velocity of 2650 fps, both of which are perfectly reasonable velocities for those two bullets using 30" barrels. For the 2156 to equal the windage of the 185 at 2750 fps at 1000 yd (~7.2 MOA deflection, G7 BC = .281), it need to leave the muzzle at just under 3200 fps. To equal the windage of the 200.20X at 2650 fps (~6.2 MOA, G7 BC = .328), it would need a muzzle velocity of just under 3500 fps. There is simply no way to do push the 155 that fast at safe operating pressures, which is why we use the longer, heavier, higher BC bullets, albeit with lower velocity, to get the best possible performance in F-Class.

The example given by the OP is a little more unique in that you have two bullets of differing weight with almost exactly the same BC. The easiest way to make the estimate is simply to plug and play with the values in a ballistics calculator. I ran the two through JBM Ballistics using a fairly generic set of atmospheric conditions, the two BCs provided by the OP, and MVs of 2900 fps and 2750 fps for the 105 Hybrid and 115 VLD, respectively. These MV values meet the 150 fps differential specified by the OP. In a 10 mph full value wind at 1000 yd, the 105 Hybrid at 2900 fps has a predicted wind deflection of 6.7 MOA. The 115 VLD at 2750 fps has a predicted deflection of 7.3 MOA. It's not even close in this case, the faster of two bullets with nearly identical BCs will win hands down, every time.

The reason for this is relatively simple. Bullet weight is not the sole reason that a slower heavier bullet may retain more velocity at distance than a lighter faster one. The real reason is directly related to the ballistic coefficient. It often works out that heavier longer bullets have higher BCs, so it's a common misperception that it's all about the weight. However, bullet mass is only one component of the BC. The shape (form factor) is another critical component. Because both are part of the BC equation, one cannot be ignored in favor of the other. Ultimately, it is the BC that determines how much drag a bullet undergoes and how much velocity it will retain at some distance, and both weight and shape are important parts of the BC. As an example, take two bullets with the exact same weight, but with different BCs. A good example would be the Berger 185 Juggernaut (G7 BC .281) and the Lapua 185 gr Scenar (G7 BC = .247). Under the general assumption that these could be loaded to ~ equal velocity (i.e. loaded at equal pressure) and comparable precision, which do you think is going to have less wind deflection at 1000 yd? The correct answer is the one with the higher BC.

What is unusual about the OPs example is that in this case the heavier bullet does not have the higher BC. The relative ease with which each bullet moves through the air is directly proportional to its BC, which has already taken bullet weight into account. So the effect of the heavier mass bullet in terms of retaining velocity has already been figured into the BC value. Comparing the two BCs and the 150 fps differential velocities of two bullets is an apples-to-apples comparison. In other words, the weight is already taken into account in the BC. So for two bullets with essentially identical BCs, the one with the 150 fps velocity advantage will have a significant advantage in wind deflection as well. For two bullets that have different weights AND different BCs, you need a realistic estimate of the muzzle velocity for each bullet in order to plug and play with the ballistics calculator. Generally, if you have a good idea of one velocity, you can make a working estimate of the other using the formula for kinetic energy: (1/2)MV^2 (one-half mass times velocity-squared). The premise is that when loaded toSet up the equation on each side of an
 
Good work. I am guilty of equating high bc with weight because they are all I shoot since i always care about getting the most possible out of any caliber. I didn't take the time to look for exceptions to the norm because I knew that I was looking among serious LR bullets. You made a worthwhile point.
 
As gstaylorg says, the two bullets with same BCs but different weights are a result of differences in their 'form factors'. The form factor is a numeric representation of the bullet's aerodynamic efficiency in relation to that of a 'reference projectile', in this case the G7 model.

The reference bullet always has a value of 1.000, so if the bullet being compared to it also has a form factor of 1, it is equally efficient. As the form factor is drag based, a higher value than 1 makes it less efficient (ie it generates more drag in passing through the air than the theoretical reference model); if it has a lower value than 1, it is more efficient.

In this case, Bryan Litz gives the pair:

105 Hybrid ................. 0.909
115 VLD .................... 0.998

So the VLD is roughly equivalent to the reference projectile in terms of generated drag; the Hybrid is getting on for generating 10% less.

Factor in their weights (actually Sectional Densities) and they have similar BCs, but as the VLD is heavier and therefore will likely have lower MVs at any given chamber pressure, it is a less efficient bullet and moves more in the wind.
 
I asked Bryan Litz if he was ever going to make a hybrid 115gr and I believe he said that the 115 was a poor bullet due to the length/diameter ratio. At some point a bullet becomes too long to shoot in a given diameter. For example, a 300 gr, 6mm bullet would be hard to keep stable and thus is a bad idea. If I remember correctly, he felt that the 115 was approaching that threshold of difficult to keep stable. Consequently, he was not going to be re-designing it.

Since this was a couple of years ago, my memory could be off. Of course, there are others at Berger who make the production decisions, a hard "no" may not be the final decision.

-Trevor

I can't comment on Bryan's view of the 115gn 6mm design, but I know he has said the self same thing about a very similar bullet in terms of the bullet OAL to diameter ratio, the 90gn 0.224" VLD. (5.64 calibres v 5.62 calibres lengths for the 224/90 and 243/115 respectively.)

When asked on this forum if he was considering a Hybrid version of the 90gn 22, Bryan said no, as it was already marginally long in relation to the calibre, so while a heavy 22 Hybrid is a possibility, if it does appear it will more likely be in the 82-84gn weight bracket.
 
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If that were so all the long range guys would be shooting lightest bullets, not the heaviest.

In some cases that's what happens. If you take 308s as an example, a good 155gn bullet outperforms a less efficient 180 or 185gn bullet. For example, the best of the recent 155s outperform the old 185gn Lapua Scenar.

The 155gn Berger Hybrid and 185gn Lapua Scenar have identical Litz generated BCs of 0.247, but you can push the Berger much faster out of a 308 Win FTR rifle than you can the 185 Lapua.

But take the much more aerodynamic 185 Berger Hybrid and at equivalent velocities (ie those generated from the same length barrel at the same chamber pressures producing the same muzzle energy), it will outperform the lighter bullet.
 
In general, regardless of the bullet weight or caliber, you can always get a pretty good idea of its comparative performance in terms of wind deflection directly from the BC and the velocity at which you can expect to push it. As long as I use reliable BC values (usually meaning G7 BCs) and reasonable velocity expectations, I haven't really come across anything that behaved in an unexpected manner. So if the BCs are close, greater velocity will have the edge. If the BCs are not very close, the [typically heavier] and higher BC bullet will usually have the better performance, regardless of the fact that it has lower velocity. In such cases, it is usually not realistic due to pressure considerations to push the lighter lower BC bullet fast enough to overcome the BC deficit. Of course, that doesn't negate the fact a bullet of any weight or BC must be capable of being loaded with good precision in a given setup. A bullet that doesn't show good precision isn't going to be very useful, regardless of how high its BC is, or how much it weighs. So there are clearly other factors besides BC and velocity that are critical when selecting a bullet for a given setup. I might actually choose a bullet that had a slight BC disadvantage if it was much easier to tune and consistently produced great precision in a given rifle.
 
If that were so all the long range guys would be shooting lightest bullets, not the heaviest.

Not really... But you would want to shoot the lighter of the 2 if there was no difference in BC so you could shoot it faster and therefore less drop and shoot a little further before you go Trans. IMO the grouping is the most important. What good is a high BC bullet that doesn't group at 100 or 200 meters? Not always the heaviest bullet is the best. Some rounds travel through transonic flight better than others. Example: 338 Lapua 250gr. lock base.
 
Just a couple cents to add to the pile:

1) I think it's safe to say that if a heavy and light bullet in the same caliber have the same BC, the heavy bullet isn't designed well relative to the light one, ballistically speaking. That potential is lost forever and you can't get it back. Blame the engineer (who may have good reasons, but still - only he can control this).

2) Lighter bullets tend to (big generalization here - all else equal, etc, etc) group better than heavier bullets because they are less sensitive to the things that cause dispersion (being unbalanced or tipping in the bore) and because they won't be spinning as fast (assuming you have an optimized twist rate). At long range, this effect is probably going to be dwarfed by ballistic performance concerns.

3) BC is everything. A lot of people get hung up on bullet weight, form factor, or caliber. They are ALL accounted for already in BC. The only things you need to compare two bullets' ballistic potential are BC and muzzle velocity.

Ergo... if you happen to have two bullets with the same BC, shoot the lighter one faster. This is not normally the case (see #1 above).
 

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