Old school 264 win mag

[q2hunter]

New to the forum, been reading for some time. Not a comp shooter, just love hunting and shooting paper with sporters. I picked up a stunning 81' model 70 xtr in 264 win mag a couple months ago. Long story short, wouldn't shoot 4moa with factories to start with. Purchased a lot of nosler brass and dies and went to work. The barrel was leaded/coppered up badly, and had some nasty work there, but managed to clean it up good. That helped significantly. Now, a couple months later, which I don't get out every day to shoot, and probably 250 rounds of various bullets/powders, I have two decent loads. By the way, 9 twist barrel. No luck with anything over 130gr, and no luck with nosler accubond long range 129s. My two loads are Sierra 120 pro hunters with 59gr 4831 (one unrepeatable 5 shot group 100yd of .5, but pretty consistent 1moa). The 2nd with barns tac tx 100gr with 62.5gr 7828ssc. .875-1.125 consistently. The trigger is good for a hunting sporter rifle, 2lbs, and crisp, don't want to go any further. I have a vortex 6x18x44, and will likely not be shooting beyond 600.

Couple other points. I have tuned these two on depth, both are best touching lands. I comp ogive the same on each round (not just OAL), and I have my sizing die set to just bump the shoulder .002. The sierras liked cci200 primers, could stay .625-.75, but 3 out of 10 would hang fire. Changed primer lots, disassembled bolt and cleaned, pin strike is excellent, couldn't fix it. Any thoughts here? Tried cci250, and win mag, win mag was the winner.....go figure. Also hornady sst 129s, hornady gmax 120s have been trialed, nothing showed the promise the other two did. Have used h4350, imr4831, and imr7828ssc. All development was book min to max in .5 increments at .020 off lands, and then went back to best to fine tune.

Anyone here have one? Any suggestions? Am I expecting too much to want to be .5 and repeatable with this rifle? I would take it tomorrow whitetail hunting as a 400yd rifle, but would like to see it a little better.

Thanks!

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I have a Remington Sendero SF-II. It was procured for coyotes and feral dogs. I shoot 95gr V-Maxs in it and it shoots very well - kind of a Varmint Special with a long action.

 

[msinc]

I think I would try IMR 4831 with Berger VLD hunting bullets...I have had excellent results with this bullet when others would not shoot and no other issues or problems were found. I cannot say why, but other shooters suggested this to me and it worked. I also think I would replace the striker spring with a new Wolf spring.
I have seen two different 264 Win mag rifles with a strange chamber problem that definitely affected accuracy...the headspace on the belt was right, but for some strange reason the shoulder was way out further than it should have been. Had to be a bad reamer, I don't know how else this could be done. Strange that I saw it in two different rifles but both were 264WM's. Worth checking.
Copper fouling will take you from 1/2" groups to over 1" very quickly depending on how bad a rifle fouls. I am guessing you have a borescope to know when it is whistle clean??? If not, find one somewhere so you can positively verify that ALL of the copper is out. Many people believe their bore cleaners work better than they do and assume the bore is clean...nothing fouls faster than a bore that fouls anyway with copper already there.

 

[q2hunter]

I think I would try IMR 4831 with Berger VLD hunting bullets...I have had excellent results with this bullet when others would not shoot and no other issues or problems were found. I cannot say why, but other shooters suggested this to me and it worked. I also think I would replace the striker spring with a new Wolf spring.
I have seen two different 264 Win mag rifles with a strange chamber problem that definitely affected accuracy...the headspace on the belt was right, but for some strange reason the shoulder was way out further than it should have been. Had to be a bad reamer, I don't know how else this could be done. Strange that I saw it in two different rifles but both were 264WM's. Worth checking.
Copper fouling will take you from 1/2" groups to over 1" very quickly depending on how bad a rifle fouls. I am guessing you have a borescope to know when it is whistle clean??? If not, find one somewhere so you can positively verify that ALL of the copper is out. Many people believe their bore cleaners work better than they do and assume the bore is clean...nothing fouls faster than a bore that fouls anyway with copper already there.

No bore scope, I just assume it is cleaner than when I got it. I performed my standard cleaning procedure with birch wood Casey and a 264 brush, then patch it out. That didn't help my groups. I could see heavy copper with a light at the end of the muzzle. I took some advise from a local smith and used a 270, then 284, then 300 brush, with each cycle the patches got nastier and the visible fouling at the end of the muzzle cleaned up. I took some loads that previously shot 2+ and it came down to 1.125. I have found it likes a clean barrel, as I can see the groups opening up around 16 shots. What gr vlds? Anything I've put down the tube over 130gr has been......gaudy awful. I since have read that was due to the 9 twist. With this rifle, do you think I'm chasing my tail with too high expectations? I'm not disappointed with .75-1, that's better than a couple thumpers I have that I simply don't enjoy shooting enough to tune better....lol. This thing is a pleasure to shoot, have fired 20+ with no sissy pad and couldn't tell I'd been on the bench.

 

[q2hunter]

I have a Remington Sendero SF-II. It was procured for coyotes and feral dogs. I shoot 95gr V-Maxs in it and it shoots very well - kind of a Varmint Special with a long action.

I have been seriously considering one! I've fell in love with the 264, and that sendero looks built to shoot......but not right now. It may cost me $1400 plus divorce tax.

 

[msinc]

No bore scope, I just assume it is cleaner than when I got it. I performed my standard cleaning procedure with birch wood Casey and a 264 brush, then patch it out. That didn't help my groups. I could see heavy copper with a light at the end of the muzzle. I took some advise from a local smith and used a 270, then 284, then 300 brush, with each cycle the patches got nastier and the visible fouling at the end of the muzzle cleaned up. I took some loads that previously shot 2+ and it came down to 1.125. I have found it likes a clean barrel, as I can see the groups opening up around 16 shots. What gr vlds? Anything I've put down the tube over 130gr has been......gaudy awful. I since have read that was due to the 9 twist. With this rifle, do you think I'm chasing my tail with too high expectations? I'm not disappointed with .75-1, that's better than a couple thumpers I have that I simply don't enjoy shooting enough to tune better....lol. This thing is a pleasure to shoot, have fired 20+ with no sissy pad and couldn't tell I'd been on the bench.

I shoot 140 grain bullets in mine and I have a 1 in 8 3/4 twist. I do see that the Berger chart calls for 1 in 8 though. I have had very good results with the 140 grain Sierra SPBT as well as the 120 grain Pro Hunter.
I very seriously doubt you are getting all the copper out. I would suggest you try either Shooters Choice MC-7 and slop it in the bore good to soak overnight. If the patch comes out blue slop it up again and dry patch it every 4 hours until the patches are no longer blue. It might take a while, but you will get the copper out.
If you don't want to wait that long and would rather be shooting get some JB Bore Cleaner from Brownell's. Follow the instructions and have an absolute bare metal clean bore in 15 minutes or so. I don't know how many rounds have been shot through this barrel, but if it is not yet broken in good it might copper up for a while yet. You'll know when you shoot and do a normal cleaning and the copper is gone.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect and get sub 1 inch groups from any modern rifle. You may not get it, but you for certain wont if you don't try...best of luck!!!!

 

[flatlander]

A borescope would almost certainly tell another tale where your 264 bore is concerned. A cartridge that's as over-bore capacity as the 264 would probably have layers of carbon & copper in the throat, possibly out 9"-10". I once had to clean a 220 Swift for a customer that was so carboned & coppered up that I could not see the lands & grooves for the first 7" of bore ahead of the chamber through my Hawkeye borescope. It took three days of soaking in Shooter's Choice AND Rem Clean abrasive bore cleaner on patches wrapped around a nylon bore brush to finally get the crud out of that thing. Prairie dog shooting with H380 was what the owner said.....

 

[Frankr]

I had one in a model 70 XTR 24" barrel. mine shot real well with a 120 NBT and IMR4350. Rem 9 1/2M primer cant remember the exact load but I do remember it was quite fast. I traded it for a new one model 70 with the claw extractor and 26" barrel I never did get that one to shoot best it ever shot was 1 1/2" at 100 yards I sent it down the road and never had the itch for a 264 again.

 

[q2hunter]

What is you guys thoughts on jb and iosso? I read up a bit on both, and they both serve the same purpose. Is one better than the other? I am placing an order with midway soon, midway doesn't carry jb but has iosso.

I'm sure t comes with instructions, but I'd like to hear your detailed regiments. I've always been one to clean often. I will not let anymore than 20rnds be fired in any of mine without cleaning. I had always used hoppes and the correct bronze brush size until this one. I cringed with worry as I pushed that 300 brush down the barrel, but I really had nothing to lose at that point, and it helped. The birch wood Casey was also a recommendation, and no doubt better than hoppes. I've since went through all my rifles with it. Is this past an every time thing or just a so often thing?

Thanks for your time an advise.

 

[stacy]

THANK ONE CARTRIDGE THAT I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO TRY BUT NEVER HAVE SHOOT SEVERAL 6.5 CALIBERS MAY ONE DAY.GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!

 

[msinc]

What is you guys thoughts on jb and iosso? I read up a bit on both, and they both serve the same purpose. Is one better than the other? I am placing an order with midway soon, midway doesn't carry jb but has iosso.

I'm sure t comes with instructions, but I'd like to hear your detailed regiments. I've always been one to clean often. I will not let anymore than 20rnds be fired in any of mine without cleaning. I had always used hoppes and the correct bronze brush size until this one. I cringed with worry as I pushed that 300 brush down the barrel, but I really had nothing to lose at that point, and it helped. The birch wood Casey was also a recommendation, and no doubt better than hoppes. I've since went through all my rifles with it. Is this past an every time thing or just a so often thing?

Thanks for your time an advise.

I have always used JB, but I believe both are as effective as the other and there is no one better than the rest with this type bore cleaner. Also, as mentioned in the one above post Remington Bore Bright is also a great and very fast effective cleaner that also works just as good as the other two. You will know when you have the right stuff from Remington because there is a rattle ball in the container that you hear when you shake it. Best thing about the Remington Bore Bright is that you can usually find it at Wal-Mart.
All of these cleaners work well with a saturated tight fitting patch. 15 or 20 strokes back and forth thru the bore and the patch will turn jet black. I usually patch it out with a sloppy Shooters Choice patch and repeat. Doesn't take much compared to waiting for a chemical to dissolve the copper. These types of bore cleaners are not used every time you fire the gun, they are more for either during break in {which actually might be every time} and after prolonged shooting sessions where you have build up.
If the bore is really bad I use a proper caliber bronze brush wrapped with a cut patch inserted dry then when half way out the muzzle I coat it with the cleaner. Run it same as above and repeat as needed.
I have a borescope, have tried every chemical made to clean bores and the ones that work with the best results are JB, Iosso and Remington Bore Bright. Many of the popular big name brands that I have tried accomplished absolutely nothing that I could see.
I shoot a lot and I barrel a lot of actions. I have two barrel cleaners in my shop...JB Bore Cleaner and Shooters Choice MC-7. I am not saying others wont work, use 'em if you like 'em...but these are the best two I have found. Once a barrel is broke in and stops copper fouling all that is needed is a wet patch with Shooters Choice.

 

[q2hunter]

I have always used JB, but I believe both are as effective as the other and there is no one better than the rest with this type bore cleaner. Also, as mentioned in the one above post Remington Bore Bright is also a great and very fast effective cleaner that also works just as good as the other two. You will know when you have the right stuff from Remington because there is a rattle ball in the container that you hear when you shake it. Best thing about the Remington Bore Bright is that you can usually find it at Wal-Mart.
All of these cleaners work well with a saturated tight fitting patch. 15 or 20 strokes back and forth thru the bore and the patch will turn jet black. I usually patch it out with a sloppy Shooters Choice patch and repeat. Doesn't take much compared to waiting for a chemical to dissolve the copper. These types of bore cleaners are not used every time you fire the gun, they are more for either during break in {which actually might be every time} and after prolonged shooting sessions where you have build up.
If the bore is really bad I use a proper caliber bronze brush wrapped with a cut patch inserted dry then when half way out the muzzle I coat it with the cleaner. Run it same as above and repeat as needed.
I have a borescope, have tried every chemical made to clean bores and the ones that work with the best results are JB, Iosso and Remington Bore Bright. Many of the popular big name brands that I have tried accomplished absolutely nothing that I could see.
I shoot a lot and I barrel a lot of actions. I have two barrel cleaners in my shop...JB Bore Cleaner and Shooters Choice MC-7. I am not saying others wont work, use 'em if you like 'em...but these are the best two I have found. Once a barrel is broke in and stops copper fouling all that is needed is a wet patch with Shooters Choice.

I'll take and appreciate any advise and recommendations I can get. As pristine as this rifle is, I don't think it's been shot that much. However, I seriously doubt it was ever cleaned by the way the bore looked at the end of the muzzle. I would agree with what little I know, that I probably haven't gotten it totally clean, but visibly much cleaner than it was. It may not be broken in yet because of the heavy fouling. I guess I just have a dream of this thing thumbnailing 5 shot groups. I've never shot over 600yds, but I'd like to someday attempt 1000, and I really don't see myself owning a build or anything set up for anything but hunting......but I do love to press the trigger when ever I can. And I'm really getting into load development for better accuracy where in the past I've been happy with 1.5 in my hunting rifles, and have gotten lucky with a few to be better than that.

Here's been my best with this rifle so far. Bobs got 5 holes in the upper torso!



I've talked with a feller on a bow forum from your neck of the woods who shoots LR and was very helpful to me in getting this one going in the right direction. I learned there's sure more to reloading than putting powder in a case and pushing a bullet down on top of it....lol. His handle is jay miller, and I assume that's probably his name.

 

[msinc]

That is an impressive group...at least to me it is, especially considering it's a factory rifle. Am I to understand correctly that this rifle has not been glass bedded yet???
"Jay Miller" doesn't ring a bell, I might know him if I saw him.

 

[q2hunter]

That is an impressive group...at least to me it is, especially considering it's a factory rifle. Am I to understand correctly that this rifle has not been glass bedded yet???
"Jay Miller" doesn't ring a bell, I might know him if I saw him.

My apologies, yes I did bed the lug +2" or so of the barrel and the tang.

 

[BoydAllen]

If I were trying to wring everything out of a rifle, and it looked like the barrel had potential, I would do a full pillar bed job, and check it using a dial indicator to see if I got it right. Anything less is likely to take the edge off of your results.

 

[flatlander]

I've found Iosso will usually remove carbon faster than J-B or Rem Clean. I'll typically use Shooters Choice first, then dry patch, followed by a patch wetted with Marvel Mystery Oil. Then wrap a patch around a nylon brush one size smaller than the bore being cleaned and work Iosso into that patch before working it back & forth in the bore. Because Iosso is so effective in removing carbon, I don't need to use it all that often in my custom bbls - maybe once every 300+rds.

 

[q2hunter]

I've found Iosso will usually remove carbon faster than J-B or Rem Clean. I'll typically use Shooters Choice first, then dry patch, followed by a patch wetted with Marvel Mystery Oil. Then wrap a patch around a nylon brush one size smaller than the bore being cleaned and work Iosso into that patch before working it back & forth in the bore. Because Iosso is so effective in removing carbon, I don't need to use it all that often in my custom bbls - maybe once every 300+rds.

Excellent! Thank you kindly for the detailed steps!

In my case, I use the Birchwood Casey gelling bore scrub, give it the back and fourth with a brass brush, then patch out until patch is clean. Then I use CLP on a patch, a few strokes back and forth, and then one dry patch just so it isn't wet. With the Iosso, would you recommend using this after the above steps? And then another round of CLP just to make sure all the Iosso is out?

 

[fourpower]

New to the forum, been reading for some time. Not a comp shooter, just love hunting and shooting paper with sporters. I picked up a stunning 81' model 70 xtr in 264 win mag a couple months ago. Long story short, wouldn't shoot 4moa with factories to start with. Purchased a lot of nosler brass and dies and went to work. The barrel was leaded/coppered up badly, and had some nasty work there, but managed to clean it up good. That helped significantly. Now, a couple months later, which I don't get out every day to shoot, and probably 250 rounds of various bullets/powders, I have two decent loads. By the way, 9 twist barrel. No luck with anything over 130gr, and no luck with nosler accubond long range 129s. My two loads are Sierra 120 pro hunters with 59gr 4831 (one unrepeatable 5 shot group 100yd of .5, but pretty consistent 1moa). The 2nd with barns tac tx 100gr with 62.5gr 7828ssc. .875-1.125 consistently. The trigger is good for a hunting sporter rifle, 2lbs, and crisp, don't want to go any further. I have a vortex 6x18x44, and will likely not be shooting beyond 600.

Couple other points. I have tuned these two on depth, both are best touching lands. I comp ogive the same on each round (not just OAL), and I have my sizing die set to just bump the shoulder .002. The sierras liked cci200 primers, could stay .625-.75, but 3 out of 10 would hang fire. Changed primer lots, disassembled bolt and cleaned, pin strike is excellent, couldn't fix it. Any thoughts here? Tried cci250, and win mag, win mag was the winner.....go figure. Also hornady sst 129s, hornady gmax 120s have been trialed, nothing showed the promise the other two did. Have used h4350, imr4831, and imr7828ssc. All development was book min to max in .5 increments at .020 off lands, and then went back to best to fine tune.

Anyone here have one? Any suggestions? Am I expecting too much to want to be .5 and repeatable with this rifle? I would take it tomorrow whitetail hunting as a 400yd rifle, but would like to see it a little better.

Thanks!

just like you we picked up a nice .264 but the barrel was shot! it had never been cleaned right and was pitted real bad. we tried to clean up but was a waste of time. we put on a new barrel and he wanted to shoot barnes but what a joke. coppered up bad and past 500yds shot like shotgun. sierra shot okay. as I am a berger nut I had him try 140vlds. bingo with imr-4350 it shoots .250 @ 100yds and under moa out to 1200yds. he got his elk this year 1 shot 685 yds. dropped like rock.

 

[flatlander]

I run a couple of patches wet with Marvel Mystery Oil after the Iosso, and then - just to make sure I've got the Iosso out, I'll wet a bore-sized nylon brush with MMO, make a few back & forth passes with it, then at least a couple more patches wet with MMO. I don't like to leave the bore sopping wet with MMO - or any oil for that matter - because my rifles are stored muzzle up, and it does no good to have excess oil of any kind migrating out of the bore & into the action/bedding/trigger. But neither do I make a practice of leaving the bore completely dry.

 

[264WM70]

I have an early 80's or late 70's Model 70 in 264 WM that I use for deer and coyote. It is a solid sub-MOA with 140 gr Winchester pp ammo. It also shoots much better dirty for some reason. The copper fouling occurred when I first got the gun but after about 100 rounds down the tube, the copper fouling virtually stopped. I don't clean the barrel till the groups start opening up and then I use carb cleaner first. Once the carbon is out, I use Copper Killer by Montana X-treme on a wet patch. Then dry patch and repeat till blue coloration is gone. Then I use a gun oil wet patch followed by two dry patches to get just a light coat of lubricant. Three shots later the groups are sub-MOA again. Probably over 100 rounds between cleaning. This is the only rifle I own that doesn't get a complete scrub down after each firing. I only had one deer run for more than 50 yards in 35 years of hunting with this caliber. Most are bang/flop drops.

Joe