OK, who has the straight scoop?

[amlevin]

Been trying some CFE223 in my .308 and am very pleased. Pleased enough to order some more.

While talking to a "source", he indicated that the powder was "OK, but is severely temperature sensitive".

OK, with that in mind I called Hodgdon. Asked about temperature sensitivity and whether a load developed at 40 degrees would become "dangerous" at 80 degrees. Their response was that they didn't see any severe issues like that when testing at both cold and hot temperatures.

Some shooters that have posted their experience with CFE223 have alluded to all kinds of issues from temperature sensitivity to pressure issues at loads way short of max. Others have claimed it's a "filthy" powder.

In my short experience with it I find it to work great with a 168 gr bullet in my 5R milspec. Shooting loads starting at minimum and increasing by .2gr working all the way to one increment short of maximum. No primer pressure issues, no heavy bolt lift, no signs of pressure on case like ejector marks.

Fouling seemed to be more of a soot like deposit but it cleaned out with exceptional ease. Copper fouling was minimal, just enough to leave a trace of "blue-green" on the first patch and then nothing.

Accuracy was exceptional and SD, MAD, ES, numbers were in the single digits (MAD of 4 fps on most accurate load).

Even as the rifle heated up, there was no indication that pressure would be a problem even if I left the cartridge in the "warm" action while waiting for the wind gusts to die off.

So in short, what's the truth about this powder? Hodgdon says it's not all that temperature sensitive. My results have shown it can be super accurate when being patient enough to work up a load. Any fouling doesn't seem to bother accuracy and cleans out with ease.

Am I just lucky or are some of those who've posted negative results just reluctant to change powders.

I'm considering heavily for my "Volume Shooting" rounds both in the .308 with 168 gr bullets and my AR-15's with 55gr FMJ-BT's. Being a ball powder it suits my needs for a well metering powder so I can load both on my Dillon 650 and get consistent weights, unlike when trying to use Varget in the Dillon for .308. Also like the idea that I can get greater speeds with this powder from my shorter barreled AR-15's (16")

I'd be interested in hearing more accounts of others experience regarding temperature sensitivity, and accuracy.

 

[expiper]

amlevin....thank you for the feedback,,,,most of the naysayers of powder/primers/bullets/etc are poor representatives of shooting/reloading skills and have trouble putting gas in their trucks!!!,,your testing and results tell volumes of good things about this new powder....IMHO any/all powders show different pressure/vel. at elevated temps......your vel/ES/SD's etc are good and that is what we all want to see ...you have done the leg work/heavy lifting for many with your results...Thanks again,,Roger

 

[spclark]

The truth is what you make it!

If you're capable of evaluating all the conditions that affect accuracy and safety then find after testing a load you're satisfied with (including temp extremes if at all possible) I say you've established your own truth, way more meaningful than conjecture or opinions from others.

Early on when I started using 8208XBR in 6XC several folks suggested it was too fast & may not be suitable. Since that time several others have confirmed what I found & are very pleased with the results. It takes time and effort to establish what's true, and the more folks working on the endeavor the greater the trustworthiness of the results.

 

[amlevin]

To support what I believe to be good results, here is a target from Monday morning at the range. Conditions were less than optimal with winds varying from 5-12 mph and "squirrelier than Nancy Pelosi"


The rifle was a Remington 5R Milspec with B&C A-5 stock, Sinclair Tactical Bipod, and a rear sandbag that was lying around the range (I forget my good one at home)

The load was a
Winchester Case neck sized only,
48.1 gr of CFE223,
Nosler Custom Competition BTHP,
Wolf LR primer.
2.820" OAL.

Chronographed at 2737 fps avg.

The group consists of 5 shots, range 100 yards.

I do believe if I had done a better job reading the wind, had no wind flags up, the shot on the left and shot on the right would have joined the three in the middle. Using "On Target" the group height measured .104" and width .867" With an "Average To Center" (of group) measurement of .207".

Monday's range session was to confirm the results I got the previous Monday. If I hadn't said it before, I will again. I like the speed potential for this powder in my loadings as well as the lack of "crunch" I get when loading Varget and get speeds about 100 fps slower with this bullet.

 

[jonbearman]

I AGREE WITH EXPIPER,GO WITH IT AND BE AWARE DURING HIGHER TEMPS THAT IT MAY SHOW PRESSURE,THATS ALL.

 

[jonbearman]

Soory caps lock keeps sticking.

 

[expiper]

amelivivn,,,you are there!!! ,,,less than 1/2 bullet vertical,,,,the left and rt. is as you say from the wind and no flags.....when you see the bullets sittin like birds on a wire,,,you are there...there is nuthn wrong with your load....this is showing us what this powder will do .....and you have your stuff working right...Roger
PS,,,is that jumping or jammed!!???

 

[brian923]

I may have to give this powder a try. have you worked up any loads for your .223 yet? im looking for a powder that will give ggod results in .308 and .223. i like the idea of having a ball powder that works well also. i have a varget load for my .308 and 168 AMAX, but it gets annoying when my powder measure cant measure it accurately.

 

[amlevin]

amelivivn,,,you are there!!! ,,,less than 1/2 bullet vertical,,,,the left and rt. is as you say from the wind and no flags.....when you see the bullets sittin like birds on a wire,,,you are there...there is nuthn wrong with your load....this is showing us what this powder will do .....and you have your stuff working right...Roger

Would you believe me if I also told you that this is from a rifle with close to 4,000 rounds "down the tube"?

It's the stock factory barrel that Remington puts on their 5-R's that are hammer rifled. I'm afraid to change it as it shoots so darn good 8)

brian923

Haven't worked on the .223 loads yet. When I get the .308 finalized (which I think I have), I'll drag out my AR-15 with a heavy Bushmaster Disapator barrel. I'm sure it will easily meet the performance of my previous powder choice for my AR's (the HB one, an M-4, and a CAR-15). The .308 was the one I was concerned about, whether it would meet the accuracy of Varget.

 

[expiper]

just curious,,were you jumping or jamming the bullets,,,Roger

 

[FroggyOne2]

I have a couple of questions AmLevin

First, is the lot of powder that you have a early lot number? The reason that I ask is that it is my understanding that the first lots were slow burning, but as folks started more in using or testing it, it appeared that it was faster burning than expected.. I understand that your using a 24 inch bbl. and 2700+ out of a 24 inch is good speed. The amount of powder that your using would suggest that it is way slower burning than Varget or RL15. The average Palma rifle load is 46 - 47 grains of Varget and usually right at around 46.5 grains. And this is with the 155 class weight bullets.

How is that 300 meter bullet acting at 1000 yards? What elevation is the range that your shooting normally at?

 

[spclark]

How is that 300 meter bullet acting at 1000 yards?

The 168 Nosler's almost identical to the 168SMK, both 300 meter bullets; folks've tried 'rm out to 1k but most are disappointed with their results. Better choice is Berger's 168 if a move up to 1,000 yards, particularly with a 24" barrel, is in the plans.

I've heard good things about AR Comp for Palma shooting (308, 155 grain) & news the CFE 223 is good too is a real plus. The propellant companies sure are making it good for us with so many choices now.

 

[amlevin]

just curious,,were you jumping or jamming the bullets,,,Roger

In a Remington 5R Milspec you need to ask? For some reason Remington decided that a freebore almost as long as the cartridge itself was necessary. To jamb I have to load 175 gr Noslers at almost 3.000" Strangely enough, when loading 175gr Nos Custom Comp's to 2.800" I get the best performance from this rifle. Even better than above.

FroggyOne2---

AS to lot number, I tossed the bottle but it was pretty current stock at a brand new Cabela's store near my house. As I stated, the performance war right along that which Hodgdon posted in their load data, allowing for differences in my chrono vs their chrono.

I won't be bothering with the 168 gr bullets for long range (over 600 yards). I have my eye on either the 178gr A-Max or the Berger 185 gr Juggernaut tactical. For those I'll stick with Varget and dispense with a chargemaster. The 168 Nosler Custom Comp's are attractive for "volume shooting" as they're available for under "two bits a piece" in boxes of 1,000.

The altitude I shoot at is usually at 200 ft. Occasionally I venture into "high country" and get up to 2500 ft.

 

[K22]

I hear this all the time at the range, I read.... or Joe told me that....; and off they go on a new path seeking Utopia.

I'm a great believer in trusting your testing and / or experience. That's not to say that I'm not open to new ideas / products but if something has worked for me for a significant amount of time I ignore the nay sayers - just keep on as long as the results are what I want them to be.

It sounds like you've done a good job of testing and analyizing the results - I would go with what you learned. Someone will always find fault with anything.

I try to always keep in focus what are my goals and try to use this as a guiding principle for changing loads. Some guys like to experiment, that's fine, I don't, I want to shoot and hunt with something that will meet my goals of accuracy and functionality.

 

[potatoe]

Amlevin: What grain bullet was used in the posted group?

 

[amlevin]

Amlevin: What grain bullet was used in the posted group?

A 168 gr Nosler Custom Competition BTHP. Like the SMK's this bullet is less sensitive to "jump" and is available for less than a quarter each when buying in boxes of 1,000. At least a dime less than the SMK's.

 

[amlevin]

Yesterday I took decided to see if the results at 100 yards would translate to 300 yards with the same old "Factory" rifle.

I sure would have appreciated less wind but it is fall and it will be a rare day to go to this range and have any calm days until next summer. wind was 4-8 mph and again coming from all four directions at one time or another.

Maybe not a group of "bench rest quality" but at least under 1/2 MOA.

Group width was 1.304'(.405 MOA) with a vertical dispersion of .639 (.204 MOA).

Bullet again was a Nosler Custom Competition using 48.1 gr CFE 223 in a Winchester case at 2,820 OAL (about the max for magazine feed from my rifle).


300 yards ( really need to get some wind flags :)

Also decided to play around with some 168 gr A-max and it looks like my 'starting' load' will be my regular load.

The upper right shot was on a totally clean bore, no foulers. The next four all got nice and snuggled up

 

[1shot]

If this powder is slower than Varget or RL-15, it just might be the ticket for the 185's. FroggyOne2 is thinking on the same lines as I am on this one. Wouldn't it be great that there is an easy metering fine ball powder that could push the heavies to good velocities for 1K shooting without giving up all the brass life to get the speed? I'm looking forward to doing some testing myself in my 30" tube rifle ASAP.
Lloyd