Ok to anneal after sizing?

[tcoz]

I’m getting ready to prime and load a batch of LC brass for my M1A that I had previously processed before I started annealing. I wasn’t going to concern myself with it but I noticed that the bullets are requiring varying degrees of effort to seat, not seating smoothly like they do in annealed brass.

Is there any problem going back and annealing at this point, before priming and loading, just to soften up the case necks?

Thanks.

 

[Mozella]

No problem, I do it all the time. Here's why.

I prefer to limit handling cases individually as much as possible I shoot exclusively single shot and put the fired brass either back into the range box or onto a clean towel; i.e. my brass comes home clean. So I feel comfortable lubing and sizing my brass before annealing. Then I wet SS tumble the brass to remove all the lube and carbon. The next step is annealing, which I do every reloading cycle. Like you, I moly coat my bullets as much to provide lubrication for seating than anything else.

My method avoids having to clean the carbon off the brass in one step only to have to clean the sizing lube off in a separate step later on.

 

[spclark]

Is there any problem going back and annealing at this point, before priming and loading, just to soften up the case necks?

None whatsoever. I don’t do it routinely but have once in awhile.

And I suggest you not go as far as truly softening those necks. It’s enough just getting them to relax, not go all limp....

 

[DRNewcomb]

I seem to recall (I could be wrong) that US military rounds are annealed as one of the last steps before priming and loading. Commercial is the same but they do a final polishing to make them shiny.

 

[tcoz]

DRNewcomb, you’re right about them being annealed but I anneal my brass every time and these feel much different than seating SMKs in Lapua brass so I thought I’d anneal them and see if it makes a difference. Could also be the difference between LC and Lapua brass and SMKs and standard FMJs.
BTW, I load the SMKs over Lapua in my RPR and NOT in my M1A

 

[jepp2]

Is there any problem going back and annealing at this point, before priming and loading, just to soften up the case necks?

Well, I did it in that order for many years. However I now anneal prior to sizing. While most of the responses you received said go ahead, when this topic has come up in the past, most suggest annealing prior to sizing.

My reason for now annealing prior to sizing is that I want to put the case neck through one sizing cycle prior to bullet seating. And since I also wash the flame over the shoulder, I get more consistent case head to datum length measurements from sizing. But I only anneal every 5'th firing.

 

[DHuffman]

None whatsoever. I don’t do it routinely but have once in awhile.

And I suggest you not go as far as truly softening those necks. It’s enough just getting them to relax, not go all limp....

I couldn't agree with you more! Everyone gets so spun out buying tempilaq spending a fair chunk of $ trying to hit that exact temperature right before it starts to degrade the brass when all you really need to do is heat them up evenly to the same temperature enough to relax the necks. IMHO

 

[tcoz]

Thanks for your responses. I wasn't initially planning to anneal brass for the M-1A at all since it gets tossed after 4-5 firings and is annealed at the factory. I’ve discovered however that annealing gives me more precise bullet seating and as jepp2 said, more precise shoulder setback so i’ll be doing it on all of my brass (before sizing) now.

 

[Richard Coody]

I couldn't agree with you more! Everyone gets so spun out buying tempilaq spending a fair chunk of $ trying to hit that exact temperature right before it starts to degrade the brass when all you really need to do is heat them up evenly to the same temperature enough to relax the necks. IMHO

i don't think the exact right temperature is as important as consistency.

 

[tmwinds]

By annealing after you size and bump the shoulder I think you are losing one advantage of annealing. That is a more consistent shoulder bump or set back. Annealing relaxes the shoulder and eliminates the erratic spring back of hardened brass. On the other hand the slight inconsistence in shoulder bump make not make a difference in a semi-automatic M1A.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Go sit some of those long candles in a hot car and see how many ways they sway and bend. Thats what your brass does when annealing due to different thicknesses and stresses in the metal. Not as noticable as in my example but thats what happens.

 

[Rtheurer]

Thanks for your responses. I wasn't initially planning to anneal brass for the M-1A at all since it gets tossed after 4-5 firings and is annealed at the factory. I’ve discovered however that annealing gives me more precise bullet seating and as jepp2 said, more precise shoulder setback so i’ll be doing it on all of my brass (before sizing) now.

Is that M14 a 1/2 MOA rifle? Is it used for 1000yard shooting?
If no on the above two items... Maybe just run it without annealing and drive on. Good luck.. I am sure it will be fine the way it has in the past without a trip through the annealer.

 

[David247]

I have not annealed at all before but I will soon. I am under the impression that the brass gets harder with use, and gets a little springy and won't hold it's form when resized. In other words, the neck gets squeezed closed slightly when forced up into the resizing die, but then opens back up when it comes out of the die which effects neck tension.
If that is the case, would it not make more sense to anneal before resizing?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Annealing after sizing is like putting your bologna on the top of your Sammich or your tighty whities on after your pants. It’s purpose is to make your cases all act the same when sizing

 

[spclark]

If that is the case, would it not make more sense to anneal before resizing?

YES, if you’re doing it both to control case sizing consistency as well as neck tension consistency.

As with most everything, annealing done at another point in case prep effects a compromise: you lose one aspect of control with the potential for gain of another.

Annealing after sizing - as long as you’re satisfied with how your resizing operations affect your case dimensions - can be focused exclusively on just the neck portion. Shorter dwell time, less heat applied, faster throughput of cases... all are now at your control. You don’t need to worry about whether case shoulders get enough heat/time, whether case sides are getting too soft... it’s a different approach that has merit when you understand what it is you’re after.

More generally annealing is done neck, shoulder and a bit of case wall as well to fully benefit from the operation, but it’s not a rule.

 

[jepp2]

In other words, the neck gets squeezed closed slightly when forced up into the resizing die, but then opens back up when it comes out of the die which effects neck tension.

If you are using a standard FL sizing die, no. What happens in that die is the neck is significantly undersized (usually 3-4 thousandths) by the die, then the expander (which is about 0.0015 smaller than the bullet diameter) passes through the neck but the neck returns to the smaller dimension. So what I see happening is the neck tension increases as neck hardness increases.

If you are using a Lee collet die, the neck isn't undersized like it is in a FL sizing die. So in that case the collets press the neck against the mandrel, and as they release, the neck springs back. So now you have a oversize neck that gives inadequate neck tension.

With bushing dies, it would be similar to the collet die. As the neck hardens, you need to use a smaller bushing to get a finished neck diameter you want.

 

[Uthink Uknow]

Well, Superman wore his underpants on the outside.

 

[Mozella]

I have not annealed at all before but I will soon. I am under the impression that the brass gets harder with use, and gets a little springy and won't hold it's form when resized. In other words, the neck gets squeezed closed slightly when forced up into the resizing die, but then opens back up when it comes out of the die which effects neck tension.
If that is the case, would it not make more sense to anneal before resizing?

No. It can make sense to do it either way. Here's why. If you anneal each reloading cycle, your brass will be consistent; however, it will be a bit different depending on when you anneal. If you shoot then size then anneal your brass will be a tiny bit harder and more springy when you size. That means you may want to use a slightly smaller neck bushing to achieve the desired neck ID.

If you shoot then anneal then size, your brass will be slightly less springy than the the example above. In that case you might want to use a neck die a tiny bit larger to achieve the desired neck ID.

If you do it one way and I do it the other, our neck tension won't be exactly the same, all other things being equal. But how different; .00001"? I don't really know and I will leave the testing to others. I'm pretty sure that any "reasonable" neck tension works fine as long as the reloader keeps it consistent.

So if your brass comes home dirty and you love fondling cases, then clean and anneal before sizing. I bring home clean brass and I hate excessive individual handling so I size, clean, and anneal in that order. Suit yourself. Either way works fine and it is NOT the same as putting on underwear last. Underwear went out of style quite a while ago anyway.

 

[Bob Sebold]

You may or probably are sizing your brass enough that it might not make a difference. I do know, if you are sizing very little, as in a bolt gun, 1/2 a thou or so, you will get all sorts of runout and you get tight chambers on some etc. I do not like to do that, but I am not using an M1, or m1A. It is not the preferred method, however, neither is inconsistent bullet seating.