I was reading another post of a member wanting to set up his own range and his need for a bullet trap to prevent contamination of his land. First off I am no way against this in any way nor do i condem anyone else for this type of concern. My question is how much/many rounds in a given area over a given time to actually cause concern to wildlife and waterfowl? My current rifle range at home is 312yds and a large hill is my backstop. I recover alot of bullets easily after firing to measure weight retention and or to later be melted for cast bullets. After a good rain more tend to wash out. Right wrong or other, the local conservation clubs use a hill side or a man made berm. Even while i was enlisted there didnt seem to be any concern for the lead getting shot down range. On these larger scale ranges there may be more of a concern but is there really that much of one for a home range that sees 400-600 rounds per year? There are a lot of variables like drainage, total area etc. that would surely make a differance too. Just looking for other thoughts and opinions.
Not trying to spark controversy but.......
- Thread starter moparman
- Start date
This is a really good question and one that you may see a whole range of answers to. I am a shooter who is also a hydrogeologist that has worked in the environmental side of the mining industry for twenty five years. I have also been an advisor on one shotgun range remediation; what follows is my experience and observation of the issues:
Range contamination is primarily due to the release of metals to a discreet backstop, or in the case of shotguns, to a wide expanse of land downstream of the target impact area (the exclusion zone on most ranges). Heavily used rifle and pistol ranges typically have some kind of "mining" program to periodically remove the scrap, as it can build up to the point where it creates richocettes (sp?). The removal of the metals, which are typically concentrated in a fairly tight firing lanes removes the potential environmental impact if done on some routine basis. The metal of primary concern is lead, which either through smallbore ammo, cast lead bullets or the cores of jacketed highpower ammo can weather and react with rain water to migrate off the site, or more likely infiltrate into the ground water system. Rifle and pistol backstop waste tends to be in the form of large pieces of lead, and the weathering process is quite slow; annual range clean up can remove most of the issue of potential contamination.
More in next post
Range contamination is primarily due to the release of metals to a discreet backstop, or in the case of shotguns, to a wide expanse of land downstream of the target impact area (the exclusion zone on most ranges). Heavily used rifle and pistol ranges typically have some kind of "mining" program to periodically remove the scrap, as it can build up to the point where it creates richocettes (sp?). The removal of the metals, which are typically concentrated in a fairly tight firing lanes removes the potential environmental impact if done on some routine basis. The metal of primary concern is lead, which either through smallbore ammo, cast lead bullets or the cores of jacketed highpower ammo can weather and react with rain water to migrate off the site, or more likely infiltrate into the ground water system. Rifle and pistol backstop waste tends to be in the form of large pieces of lead, and the weathering process is quite slow; annual range clean up can remove most of the issue of potential contamination.
More in next post
Shotgun ranges are quite different due to the small size of the lead shot. These small spheres are quite quickly attacked by weathering and under a microscope quickly look like bowling balls with multiple sets of fingerholes extending throughout the sphere. This is due to solution activity, and the lead becomes transported by the rain water or snow melt and moves offsite as runoff, or infiltrates downward to impact soil and ground water. Some of the lead may be chemically bound to the soil (attenuation), but it can also flow with surface and ground water (and erosion of contaminated soils), to be taken in by plants, aquatic insects and animals.
Lead is a toxin that bioaccumlates in human tissue (fat cells, if I recall (I am no toxicologist...)) and is linked with significant health effects. Lead can also be inhaled through indoor range dust with inadequate ventilation...
As I am not an attorney, I can not offer legal advice, but my understanding is that in the US, an operating range is under no obligation to conduct lead contamination studies so long as it is in operation. At the point of closure, there may be applicable regulations regarding the leaving of toxic materials, even on private land, that trigger mandatory clean up. The USEPA has sued the US military on a number of occaisions and forced the armed services to get into the environmental remediation game (the land of constant employment for hydrogeologists and attorneys...)
On private ground, I would think that the level of contamination would typically be very small, but if you were to sell the land there may very well be a duty of care to disclose the use of the land to a potential buyer.
Lead is a toxin that bioaccumlates in human tissue (fat cells, if I recall (I am no toxicologist...)) and is linked with significant health effects. Lead can also be inhaled through indoor range dust with inadequate ventilation...
As I am not an attorney, I can not offer legal advice, but my understanding is that in the US, an operating range is under no obligation to conduct lead contamination studies so long as it is in operation. At the point of closure, there may be applicable regulations regarding the leaving of toxic materials, even on private land, that trigger mandatory clean up. The USEPA has sued the US military on a number of occaisions and forced the armed services to get into the environmental remediation game (the land of constant employment for hydrogeologists and attorneys...)
On private ground, I would think that the level of contamination would typically be very small, but if you were to sell the land there may very well be a duty of care to disclose the use of the land to a potential buyer.
I have wondered the same about "How much is to much" myself, as our best local range is inside a 6 million acre State Park and falls under very strict guide lines. I did some research at one time when looking into the purchase of an exsisting prior military Range to be made into a public Range. Needless to say the price tag for the inspection, decontamination and clean up was more than myself or the other investors wanted to spend, plus we more than likely would not of recieved the State permits. In the process of this I remember the EPA, DEC & APA Requirements on lead maintenance beinging mentioned, not sure of the ruels of how often but do remember that there would have to be tests done to check air, ground and water quality ever once in awhile.
In the end the State was handed the property by the USAF and had us Tax payers take care of the contamination and have opened a nice Range for use by the State Police.
In the end the State was handed the property by the USAF and had us Tax payers take care of the contamination and have opened a nice Range for use by the State Police.
If you lived in an area with naturally-occuring lead (such as the tri-state district of OK, MO and IL), these deposits are deep and as a massive buried formation do not have a huge impact on the local population because the lead is not immediately available at the surface. The workers in those mines have some serious health exposures from inhaled lead dust, and local ground water supplies have likely been problematic for lead contamination.
Bioaccumulated toxins add up over time and are not purged by the body. The health impacts include (source USEPA):
If not detected early, children with high levels of lead in their bodies can suffer from:
Damage to the brain and nervous system
Behavior and learning problems, such as hyperactivity
Slowed growth
Hearing problems
Headaches
Lead is also harmful to adults. Adults can suffer from:
Reproductive problems (in both men and women)
High blood pressure and hypertension
Nerve disorders
Memory and concentration problems
Muscle and joint pain
When lead becomes mobile in the environment, it can be introduced to the food chain, or poison drinking water supplies.
You would likely not want your children eating lead-contaminated paints (which was huge problem in the US at one time (now most paints are lead free)), and the same is likely applicable to your drinking water or foods. Regulations have been put in place to avoid those health issues and those regs also include restrictions on waste dumping, which is effectively what a range becomes if abandoned and not cleaned up.
Bioaccumulated toxins add up over time and are not purged by the body. The health impacts include (source USEPA):
If not detected early, children with high levels of lead in their bodies can suffer from:
Damage to the brain and nervous system
Behavior and learning problems, such as hyperactivity
Slowed growth
Hearing problems
Headaches
Lead is also harmful to adults. Adults can suffer from:
Reproductive problems (in both men and women)
High blood pressure and hypertension
Nerve disorders
Memory and concentration problems
Muscle and joint pain
When lead becomes mobile in the environment, it can be introduced to the food chain, or poison drinking water supplies.
You would likely not want your children eating lead-contaminated paints (which was huge problem in the US at one time (now most paints are lead free)), and the same is likely applicable to your drinking water or foods. Regulations have been put in place to avoid those health issues and those regs also include restrictions on waste dumping, which is effectively what a range becomes if abandoned and not cleaned up.
I think that the main concern with environmental lead contamination is the prevention of runoff contaminating surface water. Has anyone heard of a case where ground water was contaminated by percolation down from the surface? Normally, lead must be ingested to cause a problem.
Some years ago, I knew a fellow who had spent his entire career working in a radiator repair shop, working with lead based solder. At one point the business started a program of blood testing for lead at regular intervals. The results showed that in that instance, there was no problem. I believe that all of the lead removal and application was done by melting, rather than grinding, and the shop was well ventilated.
Taking the simple precaution of thoroughly washing one's hands after handling lead, is the main way to avoid lead ingestion, and of course avoiding improperly ventilated indoor ranges.
Some years ago, I knew a fellow who had spent his entire career working in a radiator repair shop, working with lead based solder. At one point the business started a program of blood testing for lead at regular intervals. The results showed that in that instance, there was no problem. I believe that all of the lead removal and application was done by melting, rather than grinding, and the shop was well ventilated.
Taking the simple precaution of thoroughly washing one's hands after handling lead, is the main way to avoid lead ingestion, and of course avoiding improperly ventilated indoor ranges.
Boyd and Myself live in California and the use of lead bullets has been banned to save the California Condors(large buzzard).They apperantly eat rabbits shot with lead bullets and it causes them not to multiply enough.
At our local rifle range none of the lead is recovered but the brass must be picked up because rain water runs through the empty cases and leaches toxins into a nearby creek.
At our local trap club the lead falls in a very distinct area and is mined every couple of years.The trap club is on a Coast Guard Base and we are well regulated.
Of course we are required to have wheechair access and public restrooms as well.
Lynn
At our local rifle range none of the lead is recovered but the brass must be picked up because rain water runs through the empty cases and leaches toxins into a nearby creek.
At our local trap club the lead falls in a very distinct area and is mined every couple of years.The trap club is on a Coast Guard Base and we are well regulated.
Of course we are required to have wheechair access and public restrooms as well.
Lynn
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
15Tango said:
BoydAllen said:
I work in a ammunition plant, we have people that work with lead 24/7/52, of course the people that work all the time with it are tested periodically for lead levels in the blood, I have only heard of one guy that had to be removed from his job so his lead levels in the blood lowered to a acceptable level. He was a heavy smoker and tobacco user, we all used to laugh at him as he never used the multitude of wash basins we have on the plant, he was black from head to foot and would fondle his butts as he smoked until they were black, then take a dip without wiping his hands and at lunch he ate his sandwich the same way, it took a long time ingesting lead in this ridiculous manner for his blood levels to rise above normal. I myself don't drink out of cow tracks at the range and don't know anybody that does, so I don't believe I or any of the club members are in immediate danger. They closed down our local trap range in Lewiston Id, it was the oldest shooting range in Idaho, they spent weeks up there with fancy equipment removing the lead from the earth, the dust it created was immense I wonder which was more devastating, the lead that was in the ground, some of it for over 100 years or the lead filled dust we all had to breath for weeks :
I am a property owner and a great lover of the land, as a environmentalist myself, not to be confused with ignorant extremist but a great respect for the beautiful earth that God has entrusted us with I hate to see unnecessary pollution on the land and water but I think there are far more important worries then some lead from a shooting range that's back in the ground where it came from in the first place, just a side note and I thought it sad but funny, the other day I was following a Subaru station with Oregon plates with a bumper sticker on the left that said I voted for gore in 04, on the right was a sticker that said we need a change vote for OBAMA . As I followed them up scenic rattle snake grade the passenger through a disposable diaper out the window 
I way prefer the lead 
Wayne.
There is money in them thar bunkers. There are companys who mine the lead back out of the ground,they do it at my club periodically.
Somewhat related....
A few weeks ago there was an article in the local newspaper about a big chunk of land that went up for sale about a year prior, and they couldn't sell it because of amount of lead on the property. The property was used for the past 60 years for pheasant hunting. The guy that owned the property raised pheasants, released them on his property, and people would pay him to come in and hunt them. In this case, people were spraying lead out of shotguns in every direction, across the entire property, every day (except Sundays) for over 60 years). The guy who ran the pheasant hunting business passed away, and his kids immediately tried to sell the land to a developer. This piece of land is in a prime location for developers... If there's a field somewhere, it's only a matter of time until it turns into a development (unfortunately). Well, according to this article, the entire farm is contaminated with lead, and nobody wants to buy it because of that. I have no idea what happened with the land, or if any legal actions are being pursued by any environmental groups?
This is in Eastern PA, near Douglassville... Anyone else hear about this, or know what ever happened with that land?
A few weeks ago there was an article in the local newspaper about a big chunk of land that went up for sale about a year prior, and they couldn't sell it because of amount of lead on the property. The property was used for the past 60 years for pheasant hunting. The guy that owned the property raised pheasants, released them on his property, and people would pay him to come in and hunt them. In this case, people were spraying lead out of shotguns in every direction, across the entire property, every day (except Sundays) for over 60 years). The guy who ran the pheasant hunting business passed away, and his kids immediately tried to sell the land to a developer. This piece of land is in a prime location for developers... If there's a field somewhere, it's only a matter of time until it turns into a development (unfortunately). Well, according to this article, the entire farm is contaminated with lead, and nobody wants to buy it because of that. I have no idea what happened with the land, or if any legal actions are being pursued by any environmental groups?
This is in Eastern PA, near Douglassville... Anyone else hear about this, or know what ever happened with that land?
I once talked to someone who worked for OSHA and I was told that lead is very safe in solid form and that it was only harmfull in the dust form or if it was ingested. I know of a couple of people that have been shot and still have the lead in them and have had no ill effect after several years.
To the fellow that would wonder about something coming from the earth being a hazard as introduced back into the earth; consider uranium as similar.
If we dumped our nuclear spent fuel 'out back', there would eventually result a trend of very bad possibilities to the local populations.
Yeah we all recieve cosmic rays & we're all subjected to toxins/gases(like radon) that are radioactive. But piles of glowing enriched uranium, laying in a few acres of dirt -ain't natural at all.
Dilution is the solution.
If we dumped our nuclear spent fuel 'out back', there would eventually result a trend of very bad possibilities to the local populations.
Yeah we all recieve cosmic rays & we're all subjected to toxins/gases(like radon) that are radioactive. But piles of glowing enriched uranium, laying in a few acres of dirt -ain't natural at all.
Dilution is the solution.
Placing lead shot and nuclear waste in juxtaposition for this argument is pretty silly. There's both uranium and lead ore in the ground all around us. Trying to compare a primordial element changed through nuclear fission into a different state, to lead that isn't changed at all through the lobbing of a firearm, isn't exactly the same thing. I've never seen a firearm that changes the state of lead through a nuclear reaction.
With what Mr. Hanson said, it almost sounds like disturbing the lead in ranges is more of an environmental hazard than just leaving it where it is. Even if you mine all the dirt and sediment you're still left with this evil lead - where are they disposing of it? Out of sight and out of mind doesn't make us any safer.
I'm talking about the enrichment/concentration of toxic heavy metals.
You put lead mined from all over the Earth into a few berms worth of area at a firing range.
This is not natural.
WE should never do unnatural things -without a plan.
And nobody should assume that it's ok to do so.
OP atleast recognizes this, and I respect his concern.
You put lead mined from all over the Earth into a few berms worth of area at a firing range.
This is not natural.
WE should never do unnatural things -without a plan.
And nobody should assume that it's ok to do so.
OP atleast recognizes this, and I respect his concern.
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