Not Just No, But A Resounding NO!!

[P1ZombieKiller]

What if my bullet identifies as an "X".... dont you have to adress it as an "X"?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Jackie, what we need is separation - a more difficult target, such as the OLD NBRSA Hunter Target, which rewarded keeping shots centered, & penalized missing the ten ring. The 11 point method shifts the emphasis to the 100 Yd. where one can intentionally shoot X, and renders the 200 Yd., where X is largely LUCK, to second class citizen - this is extremely undesirable.

When, in the past, I proposed making the Hunter targets more difficult - as in, reducing the size - I have been literally threatened with bodily harm.

I have lost and won Nationals on tie-breakers - either way sucks . . . but, as we say here, to the 'loser', when winning via tie-breaker, "I stomped your guts out". RG

Randy, I must disagree about the 200 being relegated to not meaning much under the 11 pt system. In fact, it's just the opposite and 200 is where the separation you seek happens most.
It's pretty common for the top 5 or so at 100 to be within 2 or 3 points of one another and they lose it at 200 to someone that stayed within striking distance at 100 by shooting dots and leap frogging them.
That's the biggest difference. There is more value on hitting the dot rather than playing for safe 10s.

It's a good game. The other orgs can and will do as they wish...and that's perfectly ok.

 

[LHSmith]

I don't understand why do people want to change something that's working and people are happy.
In some way's it drives people away from the matches.

Exactly my thoughts. Shooting IBS score here in NE Penna. since 2003. I started in the game late (was in my 50's). Match venues within a 3 hour drive have been reduced 4 fold since I started. Three relays were typical for a 15 bench venue. Now one relay is the norm. I like the concept of UBR, but I wouldn't attempt to change these venues away from the established IBS Score format. I choose to shoot Hunter Class because I find it most challenging even though I am usually the only one in that class. I have hundreds of match results from past matches to gauge my progress. I intend to continue attending registered matches until it stops being fun.

 

[RGRobinett]

Randy, I must disagree about the 200 being relegated to not meaning much under the 11 pt system. In fact, it's just the opposite and 200 is where the separation you seek happens most.
It's pretty common for the top 5 or so at 100 to be within 2 or 3 points of one another and they lose it at 200 to someone that stayed within striking distance at 100 by shooting dots and leap frogging them.
That's the biggest difference. There is more value on hitting the dot rather than playing for safe 10s.

It's a good game. The other orgs can and will do as they wish...and that's perfectly ok.

Mike, respectfully - my disagreement is that, at 200 Yd and beyond, NO one can deliberately shoot X (about 1/16th MOA, or, equivalent to a 0.1736111 MPH dope in a constant vector condition! ) - they are simply a matter of having a more,or, less "lucky day".

I have never observed/known a single individual, who, at 200 Yd. and beyond, was/is predictably & reliably capable of even hitting 50% X . . . if everyone kept a season/multi-season average, they'd be "lucky" to average 8X - less than 1/3rd . . . not overly, "at will", as at 100 can be.

My example, post #36, is actual factual stuff - been shooting NBRSA and IBS(both group and score) since 1976 , and I didn't come close to winning [2022] . . . with a precision rifle, missing the AMPLE ten-ring is an egregious error in judgement, execution, or, a combination thereof. My problem, was, relative to the BIG Dogs, lousy reads/execution. RG

 

[DR_2297]

Decimal scoring separates the hard holder with good zeroes from those who aren’t / don’t. Air rifle & smallbore obviously utilize this method. We have implemented it for smallbore F class here too due to the stupid high X counts and subjectivity with plugging holes for score. But you need some method to visually and electronically score (scan / photo / etarget).

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike, respectfully - my disagreement is that, at 200 Yd and beyond, NO one can deliberately shoot X (about 1/16th MOA, or, equivalent to a 0.1736111 MPH dope in a constant vector condition! ) - they are simply a matter of having a more,or, less "lucky day".

I have never observed/known a single individual, who, at 200 Yd. and beyond, was/is predictably & reliably capable of even hitting 50% X . . . if everyone kept a season/multi-season average, they'd be "lucky" to average 8X - less than 1/3rd . . . not overly, "at will", as at 100 can be.

My example, post #36, is actual factual stuff - been shooting NBRSA and IBS(both group and score) since 1976 , and I didn't come close to winning . . . with a precision rifle, missing the AMPLE ten-ring is an egregious error in judgement, execution, or, a combination thereof. My problem, was, relative to the BIG Dogs, lousy reads/execution. RG

The game is getting tougher all the time and I do think the point rather than an x is in part, why. I do agree that even a 10x agg is above average, still. Score is a game where hitting what we aim at is the goal.
There's some mat at play, for sure with that statement.
Mathematically, it's possible to touch the dot with every shot with a .358(lets say moa) group on a ubr target, regardless of caliber.
But this is score, where hitting what we're aiming at is all that matters. So, we're really playing with half the pie rather than all of it, unless we blindly hold on the dot and hope to luck into a pile of dots..kinda. So that's .179moa. Yes, pretty tough now and the ones that hit on the far side of the condition are a bit of luck. But that's how shooting a 9 is so easy, too. Miss a let up when you're holding for center and there ya go. Same in all types of score. BTW, I shot IBS score for several years before UBR came about and a couple of years after as well. Pretty much all UBR in this area any more.
Back to the point though...hitting that dot is the name of the game and having played both, from behind and from the lead..I promise you I NEVER play for a safe 10 in UBR.. but I often did in IBS, particularly if I was leading. A safe 10 is what..1.308@200/2=.654moa. Oh yea... a .655 is a 9'er and I've seen a bunch of 1+in groups at 200 in group, too...in not so bad conditions! There's your difference! The UBR game of points that doesn't eliminate someone that is still a few points back, makes me shoot for .358moa(max), where the other games let me have only a couple or none other shooters to worry about..as long as I can shoot a clean .654moa target. In UBR, NOBODY behind you is shooting safe 10's!!
Randy, I love ya but you haven't competed in both formats and you're gonna have to trust me on this or just do it for a while for yourself. This very much does matter, particularly if you're a couple or three points back going into the 200.
It's this mindset that is the biggest difference in x's vs points. This same principle makes it easier to make a mistake...remember half the pie..and shoot a 9. Now you have to shoot two 11's to break even. Mostly this comes into play at 200 where the wind is worth almost 4x as much as at 100...so youre right in that much for sure.
Again, I've played both games for a number of years and I've had more than my share of good fortune in both disciplines. FWIW, I wouldn't shoot anything but a 30 in IBS or NBRSA and expect to consistently do well. In UBR, I mostly shoot a 6mm. I love my 30's but a 6 Grendel has carried me to a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in the last three UBR Nats, winning at 200 two of those three times, IIRC, and I lost the 200 on the last target at 200 when I won the grand but was lucky to hang on for the grand. So I lost two of three of those at 100. I got out shot. Two of those three times, I made up ground by shooting dots at 200.
I'm just saying, this is firsthand from someone who has played both and been very fortunate when all the marbles were on the table. I HOPE to do as well again in a coupler of weeks but I haven't been shooting up to my own standards due to lack of work...and the competition.

One more thing. UBR is much like group in that you can recover from ONE bad shot. Nope, ya can't leave em on the table but you can have one and shoot very well for the rest of the way and overcome one.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Great piece of movie satire.

Seriously, I am heavily invested in the 30 caliber, but I am more heavily invested in my desire to keep score shooting as a competitive endeavor.

Read the first two sentences in the NBRSA mandate and objectives of the NBRSA.

https://www.nbrsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/rule_book_nbrsa_short_range_2022.pdf

At my home club, Tomball, where we have a thriving Club Match program, (score), where 98 % of the shooters use some variant of a 30BR. Since very few shoot group, very few own a smaller caliber competition rifle. So there is very little interest in going to the UBR Format. The same can probably be said for the Austin Club, and possibly the Club that Wes Johnson shoots out of in the Dallas/Ft Worth area.

Lake Charles, also in the NBRSA Gulf Coast Region, is much like Tomball, just about 100% 30 caliber.

But, you head West, (still in Texas), and you can count the number of Score Shooters on one hand, along with the number of 30 caliber Benchrest Rifles. Group shooting is still the predominate activity.

When I ask my friends who shoot Group exclusively why they do not give score a try, the unanimous answer is “I don’t have or want to shoot a 30”.

Another underlying reason might be that many group shooters go by the adage……”they give you 7 minutes to pick out the 25 seconds that i takes to shoot your group”. Unless the conditions are extremely light, that simply does not wrk in the 100/200 yard Score Format.

I went to Score years ago mainly because that is what we shoot in this part of The Gulf Coast Region. I was hoping to go to Lubbock to shoot the Gulf Coast Region Group Championship in September, but I am scheduled to get my new artificial lens replacements in my eyes that week.

I hope you do realize that the NBRSA has, does and will put GROUP ahead of score shooters, as is reflected in their own bylaws. They have shown little to no regard for score shooting even within their own org. UBR is the closest thing to their own bylaws available.
A quote from NBRSA...from your own post...
No wonder score shooting is seen as second tier BR, when it is debatably harder than group!

1.2. The achievement of extreme precision in rifles, ammunition, equipment and shooting methods by shooting “groups”.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I hope you do realize that the NBRSA has, does and will put GROUP ahead of score shooters, as is reflected in their own bylaws. They have shown little to no regard for score shooting even within their own org. UBR is the closest thing to their own bylaws available.
A quote from NBRSA...from your own post...
No wonder score shooting is seen as second tier BR, when it is debatably harder than group!

1.2. The achievement of extreme precision in rifles, ammunition, equipment and shooting methods by shooting “groups”.

I was paying more attention to 1.1.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I don't understand why do people want to change something that's working and people are happy.
In some way's it drives people away from the matches.

Thus, look at the fall in benchrest the last 20 years or the last 10. I think it needs a spark. So with the 11 poin system more people are relevant in a match longer. This it helps good their interest. Retire the records, it has been done before, and all the current participants have new records to go after. Win win. We are lososing as a sport the last 20 years, try something new. Why not try and plug the drsin.

 

[brcman]

For those of you that are speaking in favor of this proposed change, are you telling me that you actually think the target with the 9 and 8 is the better target and it should beat the other target with all very solid10's that are well inside the 10 ring and not even touching the 10 ring?

Wayne Corley

 

[geo.ulrich]

I think competitor A needs to plug target #4 , he wins with a 51 ......

 

[jackieschmidt]

I'd like to offer an opinion of someone just getting into the SR game so I don't have dog in this fight. In fact, I don't think organizations should change what they are already doing unless there is a justifiable reason to do so. Let current results accurately compare to historical ones under the same rules.

In group shooting the only quantified result is the group itself.
In score shooting (IBS/NBRSA) there are two quantified results, actual score and number of X's.

IMO (and it doesn't mean much and I could very well change my mind later) score shooting should come down to score alone. In that case, if you want to put a dot in the center of the ten ring it should have a numerical value. Using it as nothing more than a means as a tie-breaker is something beyond score and beyond what is done in group shooting - the "X" factor added in. That is comparable to LR.

So with that in mind, yes I think that while the target with all shots inside the 10 ring equal the score of the target with the 8/9, and looks like better marksmanship based on that alone, it is not a better score if score is the game. If measuring each bullet distance from center is the game then the 10's have it. I would use 11's as the tie-breaker to put the 8/9 target ahead of the 10's. It all comes down to what is the basis for quantification.

I don't think changing X's to 11's in IBS/NBRSA can be done with an additional change. That would be to either have different classes (.22cal, .24 cal, .30cal) which I think is a bad idea or targets specific to caliber which UBR does which would be a better option.

If shooter numbers are not leaving due to this topic then leave it as it is - IMO. And if I misrepresented how something is done with the above then correct me as I am still learning and new to the SR stuff.

You can rest easy, because it is not going to change, at least not in my lifetime,(I’m75).
Short Range Benchrest has been waning in popularity, but it has little to do with the scoring system in Varmint for Score.

Without being too facetious, It has a lot more to do with the fact that we can’t incorporate the term “sniper”, “combat” or “tactical” into the format’s description. That is what seems to appeal most to the new generation of shooters.

 

[LHSmith]

I'd like to offer an opinion of someone just getting into the SR game so I don't have dog in this fight. In fact, I don't think organizations should change what they are already doing unless there is a justifiable reason to do so. Let current results accurately compare to historical ones under the same rules.

In group shooting the only quantified result is the group itself.
In score shooting (IBS/NBRSA) there are two quantified results, actual score and number of X's.

IMO (and it doesn't mean much and I could very well change my mind later) score shooting should come down to score alone. In that case, if you want to put a dot in the center of the ten ring it should have a numerical value. Using it as nothing more than a means as a tie-breaker is something beyond score and beyond what is done in group shooting - the "X" factor added in. That is comparable to LR.

So with that in mind, yes I think that while the target with all shots inside the 10 ring equal the score of the target with the 8/9, and looks like better marksmanship based on that alone, it is not a better score if score is the game. If measuring each bullet distance from center is the game then the 10's have it. I would use 11's as the tie-breaker to put the 8/9 target ahead of the 10's. It all comes down to what is the basis for quantification.

I don't think changing X's to 11's in IBS/NBRSA can be done with an additional change. That would be to either have different classes (.22cal, .24 cal, .30cal) which I think is a bad idea or targets specific to caliber which UBR does which would be a better option.

If shooter numbers are not leaving due to this topic then leave it as it is - IMO. And if I misrepresented how something is done with the above then correct me as I am still learning and new to the SR stuff.

IMHO attendance is not waning DUE to the score system in my region. Other factors are at play. I do, on occasion, use a 6mm in the VFS class and actually won a match against 18 other competitors using 30's. My closest venue offers a cash reward to the top 6mm shooter in addition to agg winner receiving cash. You will loose more competitors than you can ever hope to gain by changing scoring formats.

 

[brcman]

I think competitor A needs to plug target #4 , he wins with a 51 ......

George- when I made those targets I used a .250 paper punch and black paper, I also placed the black bullet holes so it would look like a solid "50". There are no "X's" on that target so you would losse the protest and your $10.

I really do not like to be involved in these types of discussions but wanted everyone to see a picture of what is being discussed in this post.

 

[jackieschmidt]

George- when I made those targets I used a .250 paper punch and black paper, I also placed the black bullet holes so it would look like a solid "50". There are no "X's" on that target so you would losse the protest and your $10.

I really do not like to be involved in these types of discussions but wanted everyone to see a picture of what is being discussed in this post.

You do make an excellent point.

 

[brcman]

You do make an excellent point.

Jackie- Since I shoot more group matches than score matches these day I understand why others that shoot group have that "no way to catch up if I drop a point" approach, but what it boils down to is that group and score are two completely different animals. Both are great!

 

[Immike]

This shouldn’t be considered until x count perfection is achieved by too many, change for change sake doesn’t preserve the history and records gentlemen. We went through this Debate 10 year ago with Fclass on here... it failed then too because no institution is interested in restarting the record keeping.

 

[geo.ulrich]

Mike the current IBS 100 yard hv record is 250 25 x

 

[Immike]

Mike the current IBS 100 yard hv record is 250 25 x

I’m not saying don’t adjust to shooting just don’t take a major change lightly... any change to scoring moves people down the ladder. You should look at the target before the scoring system if it’s too easy for you... Changing a x to a point is just terminology...

 

[AlNyhus]

For those of you that are speaking in favor of this proposed change, are you telling me that you actually think the target with the 9 and 8 is the better target and it should beat the other target with all very solid10's that are well inside the 10 ring and not even touching the 10 ring?

Wayne Corley

Wayne, your examples very clearly demonstrates what's being proposed...thanks for posting them.

You were missed at the NBRSA Score Nationals. -Al