Norma powders.

[rogn]

Has anyone had much experience with Norma powders in 223/556 or 308W. 204 and 202and 203b seem to be useable in both cartridges. I was wondering if there is any real world experience available on them. I know they've on and off in supply, but it seems as though some is available currently.

 

[Milo 2.0]

I can help some, I do know Norma powders are of quality, clean burning, etc...
I shoot 203B in a 6BR, yes there's better, but it works here, I've shot MRP & MRP2 in heavier 7mm's, good stuff.
For comparison, RL15=203B, Rl22=MRP, made in the same plant, but the Norma is a higher grade offering. Norma's load data is on the mark;

http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data/

Some manuals list Norma powders, I don't buy into Berger's data on a few listings, most notably, 7mm SAUM.
If Norma lists what you need, use their data.

 

[wapiti25]

N204 is similar to RL-19, 4350 burning range but more dense. It is a double base powder.

 

[Milo 2.0]

N204 is similar to RL-19, 4350 burning range but more dense. It is a double base powder.

Not trying to start anything here, but the only powder Norma has ever listed as a dual based powder is MRP2.
All their powders contain Nitro, with percentages up to 11.5% in MRP, but they still don't classify it as double based. At 4.5% Nitro, 204 is far behind.

 

[rogn]

202?

 

[dmoran]

For comparison, RL15=203B, Rl22=MRP, made in the same plant, but the Norma is a higher grade offering.

Questions:
- Where are you getting this information, or is it just your opinion?
- What makes the Norma a higher grade then the Alliant?

Not trying to start anything here, but the only powder Norma has ever listed as a dual based powder is MRP2.
All their powders contain Nitro, with percentages up to 11.5% in MRP, but they still don't classify it as double based. At 4.5% Nitro, 204 is far behind.

Propellants using Nitrocellulose as the sole explosive ingredient are a Single-base powder.
Propellants using Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerin as the explosive ingredients are Double-base powder.

 

[Laurie]

Propellants using Nitrocellulose as the sole explosive ingredient are a Single-base powder.
Propellants using Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerin as the explosive ingredients are Double-base powder.

Not 100% accurate Donovan. A true double-base powder has nitrocellulose + nitroglycerine components in the base mix before 'cooking', kernel formation and whatever. That applies to all ball powders and a small number of extruded rifle types, mostly historical such as Alfred Nobel's 'Ballistite' and the similar British government 'Cordite'

Most modern exruded rifle propellants that have an NG component start with a basic single-base kernel which is then infused in NG to absorb some of it into the kernel. Technically, powder manufacturers refer to this type (Norma / Alliant Reloder, Viht N500-series, Nitro-Chemie powders such as Re17) as 'high-energy' and correct you if you call them 'double-base'.

 

[Milo 2.0]

For comparison, RL15=203B, Rl22=MRP, made in the same plant, but the Norma is a higher grade offering.

Questions:
- Where are you getting this information, or is it just your opinion?
- What makes the Norma a higher grade then the Alliant?

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17815

As for your second question, it's just what I've heard over the years, and have always heard, especially on this forum how dirty Alliant powders are, I've never heard of Norma powders described as dirty, nor have I experienced it.

 

[dmoran]

milo-2 -

The first part of sentence you say RL15=203B, RL22=MRP are the same. Then in the last part of your sentence you state: "but the Norma is a higher grade offering."
The two are totally contradicting each other, or how could they be the same (=), and just wondering where you got the information that Norma are of higher grade.

As to single-base and double-base, look at the active ingredients, the percentages of content will tell you what they are.
Nitroglycerine is added to powder as a "energy booster", or as Laurie wrote "high-energy". But the simple fact is a Single-base powder does not contain nitroglycerine, but when a powder does contain nitroglycerine, no matter what the percentage, it is a double-base powder. There is no "it's kind of a double-base", it either is or isn't, it either does or it doesn't.

Best Regards
Donovan

 

[Laurie]

Well ... the distinction isn't mine, it's from a senior chemist in a powder manufacturer which make both conventional single-base and high-energy or 'double-base' smallarms extruded propellants, the latter a term I used myself until corrected.

Since the chemist and manufacturer are Swiss, that may of course explain the fine nature of the distinction since this is a nation that prides itself on its precision in all things it does. It does tie in though with Vihtavuori always describing its N500 series powders as a 'high-energy' form.

 

[dmoran]

Laurie -

I suggest you go to the fallowing Vihtavuori link, and read the descriptions of there powders.
N100's are stated as Single-base
N300's are stated as Single-base
N500's are not stated to be single or double-based, and that Nitroglycerol is added as extra energy component, and then referred to as "High Energy powders".

Link: www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-powders

Again I will state the text book meaning of both Single and Double-base powders:
- Propellants using Nitrocellulose as the sole explosive ingredient are a Single-base powder
- Propellants using Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerin as the explosive ingredients are Double-base powder
Also, will again state that Nitroglycerin is added to propellents as an energy booster.

Donovan

 

[Milo 2.0]

Ok Donovan, I guess by Norma's website all their powders are high energy??
Even though I think even through emails with Norma techs, I seem to remember MRP2 referenced as a dual based powder, not the others. And, just the expense of manufacturing it, and not a hot seller, was why it was discontinued.

As for higher grade, it's just something I've read repeatedly over the years, maybe on a forum, maybe somewhere else, I guess other than the price difference, it's not something I can substantiate. I'm not about to go searching for it's whereabouts either.

Another successful hijack to prove someone wrong!

 

[dmoran]

Another successful hijack to prove someone wrong!

Milo - your statement that Norma is a higher grade propellent then Alliant if not factual, is a a very bold statement, that I was asking clarification of the fact or if it was just your opinion. And if it is your opinion, cool....
As to Single and Double-base powders, I simply added it for clarifications to what they are by meaning.

On another note, in the RelaodersNest link that you provided above, from the list that "lsjonsson" provided I have to doubt its factual accuracy.
And the reason being, if you go to Alliant Reloaders website and read the MSD's Sheets to each of the powders, there RS numbers are different then "lsjonsson" list. For instance:
He stated RL15 to be RP15, where Alliant names it as RP11 / RL15 <> (see Product Name of the MSD sheet)
He stated RL22 to be RP22, where Alliant names it as RP15 / RL22 <> (see Product Name of the MSD sheet)

Sorry if I came across as hijacking you, but to me those kind of statements, if not factual, are detrimental and is example of how misinformation and bad information gets spread on the internet.

Donovan

 

[Milo 2.0]

I've seen that list by "lsjonsson" more than once, I don't believe his name was associated with them all. Being posted by people I somewhat take their word for, I thought it was factual.
Also going off Hodgdon's burn rate chart, two are close, 203B isn't listed anywhere.
I actually buy into it, and would substitute the powders, with workup of coarse.

Again as far as grade goes, RL powders get a bad rap as being dirty, Norma doesn't, something's going on??

I do agree the net gets flooded with tainted info, and I may be guilty today