Norma 223 very short life?

[boltfluter]

Well I found the Dremel. Clear initiation of tensile failure at the site. Sorry for the crappy photos, but all I have is a phone these days. First one is as cut, then on the second I cleaned up a bit of the carbon. And that surprised me how much carbon was in the bottom 1cm, and how hard it was to get off. above the mark came clean pretty quick but the crusty crab below is really thick. Sort of makes me wonder if I really should wet tumble on occasion, but I quit to preserve carbon in the neck and it is also a mess and if you don't really rinse well and kill the acid cleaning agent then you get corrosion, even if you "think" you rinsed well.

Enjoy the pics.

Great job on the pics. Looks pretty obvious you were on the right track. Strange after so few firings.
Paul

 

[jepp2]

Wondering if anyone else has seen this.

I have. But not with your brass.

I purchased a 223AI bolt gun used. I never got a clear answer how the rifle was rechambered. (Barrel set back a turn or not) I knew the headspace was long as none of the brass with different case to datum length could not be felt when closing the bolt.

I sized some once fired brass sized with no shoulder setback and the longest case head to datum in the bunch. Of the 20 fired over half showed the same marks as yours. All failed the paperclip test.

On a properly chambered 223AI you should be able to feel the bolt close on new brass. The headspace "should" be -0.004". I sent the rifle to my smith and he found the headspace to be +0.016". He set the barrel back a turn and properly chambered it.

Yous is stretching the brass excessively and creating incipient case head separation as you determined. Since I don't know the length of your new brass or the chambering of your rifle I can't comment on that. But your sizing practice is setting the shoulder back more than necessary. One of the benefits of the AI case is the case doesn't grow. When I size my AI cases I actually size to move the shoulder "forward" until I start to feel the case on closing a stripped bolt. Then I start setting the shoulder back 0.001" from bolt contact.

I would suggest you paper clip test the remaining rounds in that batch of brass and discard any that fail. Check your new brass to see how much longer it needs to be for bolt contact (either add tape to the case head or install a fired primer and do not fully set then close the bolt on it). This way you can determine if it is a rifle chamber length issue or a sizing issue.

FWIW, I ran a case life test using once fired range LC brass in an AR. I expected the life to be limited to incipient case head separation due to the shoulder setback for a gas gun. 20 cases lasted 24 to 35 firings and NONE had any stretching from the sizing.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

I have. But not with your brass.

I purchased a 223AI bolt gun used. I never got a clear answer how the rifle was rechambered. (Barrel set back a turn or not) I knew the headspace was long as none of the brass with different case to datum length could not be felt when closing the bolt.

I sized some once fired brass sized with no shoulder setback and the longest case head to datum in the bunch. Of the 20 fired over half showed the same marks as yours. All failed the paperclip test.

On a properly chambered 223AI you should be able to feel the bolt close on new brass. The headspace "should" be -0.004". I sent the rifle to my smith and he found the headspace to be +0.016". He set the barrel back a turn and properly chambered it.

Yous is stretching the brass excessively and creating incipient case head separation as you determined. Since I don't know the length of your new brass or the chambering of your rifle I can't comment on that. But your sizing practice is setting the shoulder back more than necessary. One of the benefits of the AI case is the case doesn't grow. When I size my AI cases I actually size to move the shoulder "forward" until I start to feel the case on closing a stripped bolt. Then I start setting the shoulder back 0.001" from bolt contact.

I would suggest you paper clip test the remaining rounds in that batch of brass and discard any that fail. Check your new brass to see how much longer it needs to be for bolt contact (either add tape to the case head or install a fired primer and do not fully set then close the bolt on it). This way you can determine if it is a rifle chamber length issue or a sizing issue.

FWIW, I ran a case life test using once fired range LC brass in an AR. I expected the life to be limited to incipient case head separation due to the shoulder setback for a gas gun. 20 cases lasted 24 to 35 firings and NONE had any stretching from the sizing.

Interesting note on the LC brass. On the original barrel that I started with and cut with a rented reamer, I had multiple case head failures on the fire forming step with once fired LC brass. I attributed this to the fact that the original firings were from an AR with a Wylde chamber. Never explored past that, just started over with new Lapua and those cases still running fine with over 25 loadings. The only "loosness" to the primer pockets is that I can seat primers without hurting my hand. I don't routinely run hot, but I did try some really smoking ones early when I tried StaBall 6.5. Speed was there and did not look like any pressure but the SD's were all over the place, like 50 or so, so that endevour ended.

I like the idea of the test with a partially seated primer, but I'm not sure what that will tell me as compared to a fresh fully formed case before sizing. Ill try and see

Thanks

 

[SKWERLZ]

Interesting note on the LC brass. On the original barrel that I started with and cut with a rented reamer, I had multiple case head failures on the fire forming step with once fired LC brass. I attributed this to the fact that the original firings were from an AR with a Wylde chamber. Never explored past that, just started over with new Lapua and those cases still running fine with over 25 loadings. The only "loosness" to the primer pockets is that I can seat primers without hurting my hand. I don't routinely run hot, but I did try some really smoking ones early when I tried StaBall 6.5. Speed was there and did not look like any pressure but the SD's were all over the place, like 50 or so, so that endevour ended.

I like the idea of the test with a partially seated primer, but I'm not sure what that will tell me as compared to a fresh fully formed case before sizing. Ill try and see

Thanks

How much case growth are you getting on your first firing?

I always do the first loads with with a fairly mild load, especially brass like Norma.
About 100-125 slower than desired speed, that first firing hardens the dead’s more without stressing the pockets in the least

 

[snert]

I will offer a totally apples oranges example, but it might help.

I shoot a rechambered 22 K hornet and a rechambered 17FB in a TC contender. If you know about these systems, headspace is a huge issue, so I have taken care to measure thrice. Both cases are fireformed cases. The K is a hornet fired to make it K. The FB is 223 brass once fired, reformed in dies, then again fireformed.

I have case separation issues with BOTH, despite doing minimal headspace resizing. I beleive it is simply a matter of the fireforming process on these non-standard chambers. I think the brass is stretched too much on the initial forming, and subsequently fails.

I wear glasses.

 

[Bill K]

Just a comment, if you like Norma brass or even if you don't, read the daily bulletin section and see they will have a plant now in Georgia, so maybe some brass will be easier to locate for all of us. Wish more companies would come back to the USA and free states and not the commie states we have now. Put our dollars into states that support the 2nd Amendment and gun owners.

 

[MislMan]

Can you chamber fired brass with no issues. Maybe you started doing setback on the brass too early in the forming cycle. You might be fire forming each shooting cycle and then setting it back. possibly (for this brand of brass) doesn't/didn't hold the expanded dimensions on the first round of fire forming. Maybe too much spring-back.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Usually norma brass gets loose pockets before they stretch like that. Im about 98% sure your bump numbers are off. Perhaps you measured when brass was new. Case heads do not seperate like that unless the brass is flowing forward.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

Can you chamber fired brass with no issues. Maybe you started doing setback on the brass too early in the forming cycle. You might be fire forming each shooting cycle and then setting it back. possibly (for this brand of brass) doesn't/didn't hold the expanded dimensions on the first round of fire forming. Maybe too much spring-back.

Yes it will chamber, but I can definitely feel that it is hitting bottom on bolt closure. On my first run with this cartridge (Different rifle an brass) , I started by only neck sizing but soon learned that after about 3 firings, there was no full length sizing, it was so hard that it would stick in the die and rip the rims off. I stopped and F/L after every firing. Now maybe I could still do this, but not bump as much, but as stated earlier, If I don't bump some my case growth during sizing makes it too long to chamber correctly Maybe + 0.002 or a bit more longer than as fired.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

How much case growth are you getting on your first firing?

I always do the first loads with with a fairly mild load, especially brass like Norma.
About 100-125 slower than desired speed, that first firing hardens the dead’s more without stressing the pockets in the least

This brings up an interesting thought. I read about doing this and gave it a try on a few rounds. Since I has some excess CFE223 and some 73 grainers, I loaded up some in the mid range for a straight 223 as FF loads. Well, they didn't form. Shot good, but the cases were just sort of rounded out 223's, looked more like the original than an Ackley. Since to date I have only 4 cases that show this, just a wild haired thought that maybe that process resulted in some excess body stretch??? Next firing on my "normal" FF load blew them right out and they went right into the box with the others. Maybe this is a nutty idea, but who knows. The remainder of the loaded rounds that I have show no external signs and after this (4th) firing maybe I'll know a bit more. Thanks for the brain prompt.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

Just a comment, if you like Norma brass or even if you don't, read the daily bulletin section and see they will have a plant now in Georgia, so maybe some brass will be easier to locate for all of us. Wish more companies would come back to the USA and free states and not the commie states we have now. Put our dollars into states that support the 2nd Amendment and gun owners.

I think they are only going to be loaded ammo, but more power to them and anyone else that want to manufacture here in the USA. On that note, I'll put a shout out for Peterson Brass located in PA, top notch stuff at a decent price and all USA, If you haven't already tried their stuff give it a whirl, I'm sure you'll be pleased.

 

[snoopy001]

I think they are only going to be loaded ammo, but more power to them and anyone else that want to manufacture here in the USA. On that note, I'll put a shout out for Peterson Brass located in PA, top notch stuff at a decent price and all USA, If you haven't already tried their stuff give it a whirl, I'm sure you'll be pleased.

Peterson is the top of the top , SRP choice in several calibers makes an additional reason to buy his great product
Hope the will add soon 300 WSM infact all other brands are painfull quality like rubbish at all.

 

[boltfluter]

Yes it will chamber, but I can definitely feel that it is hitting bottom on bolt closure. On my first run with this cartridge (Different rifle an brass) , I started by only neck sizing but soon learned that after about 3 firings, there was no full length sizing, it was so hard that it would stick in the die and rip the rims off. I stopped and F/L after every firing. Now maybe I could still do this, but not bump as much, but as stated earlier, If I don't bump some my case growth during sizing makes it too long to chamber correctly Maybe + 0.002 or a bit more longer than as fired.

Based on tearing off the rims you probably have a die to chamber mismatch as well. I once had a .17 Remington with a big factory chamber do the same thing. Switched to using a neck die that slightly sized the body as well and that was that. No more torn rims and chambered just fine. Just a thought.

Paul

 

[SecondsCount]

Out of curiosity-

What action?

What do your primers look like on the 88 ELD/Varget loads?

 

[ebb]

Fairchild Industries, Remington Arms, Winchester Corp. and Eugine Stoner developed the 223 in 1957 to shoot a 55 grain bullet 3000fps to achieve an accuracy standard at 500yds set by the US Army. Just because F class shooters want to shoot it with a 90 grain bullet with way more pressure to 1000yds doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I didn't see any mention of COAL. Based on what's going on here, it sounds like you are on the short side.

The reamer drawing was too low res for me to read your freebore length.

I run 90 grainers in my 223 bolt seated to an OAL of around 2.670". I believe my freebore length is around 0.190" or so.

My feeling is there are two benefits to the longer seating depth... One is that it increases the case volume and makes room for more powder without pressures... The other is the longer freebore, if sufficiently tight, can ensure proper bullet alignment and improve accuracy.

You might consider extending the throat just a bit.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

Out of curiosity-

What action?

What do your primers look like on the 88 ELD/Varget loads?

This one is a savage 11 action. Kreiger bbl.
Primers are normal and no signs of pressure. Still rounded