NightForce Response to Possible Scope Issues

[CaptainMal]

Thought the response was professional and considerate. Here is what I sent them:

Own two BR 12-42's on Kelbley Stolle Panda's. Building another for benchrest
but hung up on the scope. Wanted a Competition model. The chaos on Accurate
Shooter with multiple Competition models showing clear impact shifts under
scope tests with other scopes that were "fixed" is significant. Those many
failures have to be something you are looking at.

Have you found out why so many move under shooting concussion / recoil that
seem to get through your mechanical shock tests?

If you have a solution might there be a production change to help the
Competition model hold zero?

Here is their response received this morning:

Larry,

We certainly understand your position on this and respect your opinion. We feel it is not in our companies best interest to engage in a debate on a public shooting forum.

We address every customer concern seriously, and try to never elude to the belief that they are not being truthful. We have proven factory tests that have served as the back bone of our company for many years. When we inspect an optic and find it to be free of faults, we contact each and every customer personally to discuss the findings, and to offer further support based on our knowledge and experience. We hope that this shows our commitment to our customers.

Unfortunately, there are times when we are unable to duplicate the customers concerns, and the customer disagrees with our inspection results which leaves us in a difficult situation.

We always strive to deliver the best customer service possible. We appreciate your correspondence and your feedback.

Respectfully,


Technical Support, Customer Service 6
Nightforce Optics, Inc
336 Hazen Lane, Orofino, Idaho 83544
(208)476-9814 p
(208)476-9817 f


Makes sense to me and fits the feedback other posted here on their experience. Seems each I read of being sent for inspection came back in good working order. May be an exception but I do not remember any. Also seem to remember that nothing was ever stated regarding any repair technique but the returned models did work. That fits the verbiage used in their response.

My opinion again is Nightforce backs their products and supports the shooting sports. Makes me comfortable with their product lines.

 

[falconpilot]

I've followed the thread closely from the beginning, including calling Alex out on the the fact that he is a March dealer(in the original thread), and should have stated as much in his very first post regarding this whole matter, especially since his March scope was one of the only ones that didn't move. IMO, doing so would have taken away any notion of his being basis..As such, I've been very critical of the thread, keeping my thoughts to myself. After following the thread, lots of other people seem to support his findings though..Maybe its the placebo effect, but can't really imagine that...

Nightforce is a great company, paving the way for long range shooting..,,IMO, they are the reason we F-Classer's shoot a 1/2" MOA target now...they made seeing long distances possible..I remember when the very first NXS came out, my dad thinking I'd lost my mind for buying a "unknown", not Leupold scope! Who in they right mind would pay $1800 for a scope! Then as a past member of a US team, watched as Nightforce fully supported the sport and our teams...something that to best of my knowledge, March has not done...therefore, I've been very loyal to the Nightforce brand..I own 3 15x55 Comp models and now have 3 12x42 NXS. I've also owned a March, which is a great scope..not knocking them at all.

I do have a few concerns regarding the methods in which the scopes are being tested with these scope checkers, but the fact remains where there is this much smoke, there has to be fire. If I ever suspect that my NF scopes are moving on me I'll take it off and send it in and see what happens. That being said, I'm finishing the build on a new gun right now..I wanted a new Comp to put on it, but instead I looked around and found a nice 12x42NXS for it until these "issues" clear themselves up, if there really are any issues with my scopes..

Nightforce is in a tough spot with all this, and its a very slippery slop for them. I think their response is a good one, and the only one they can give..

 

[dmoran]

Have you found out why so many move under shooting concussion / recoil that
seem to get through your mechanical shock tests?

If you have a solution might there be a production change to help the
Competition model hold zero?

Larry -
Thanks for sharing.... !.!.!
You wrote them asking 2 questions (quoted above) and feel both were very good and legitimate questions.
I read there response to you as a thoughtful reply, but not at all answers or addressing either of your questions directly. Leaves me to wonder why the lack of response to your questions.
Donovan

 

[Uthink Uknow]

I'm not going to bash a scope dealer or his wares. I'm not going to bash Charlie Hood and his scope checkers. I'll only say that every time I "knew" my scopes have gone hay wire I have put them on the scope checkers and found I am human. I was having a bad day. My dad used to say when checking to see why the car wasn't working right, fix the cheapest part first. Most often the cheapest part is me.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I've followed the thread closely from the beginning, including calling Alex out on the the fact that he is a March dealer, and should have stated as much in his very first post regarding this whole matter, especially since his March scope was one of the only ones that didn't move. IMO, doing so would have taken away any notion of his being basis..As such, I've been very critical of the thread, keeping my thoughts to myself. After following the thread, lots of other people seem to support his findings though..Maybe its the placebo effect, but can't really imagine that...

Nightforce is a great company, paving the way for long range shooting..,,IMO, they are the reason we F-Classer's shoot a 1/2" MOA target now...they made seeing long distances possible..I remember when the very first NXS came out, my dad thinking I'd lost my mind for buying a "unknown", not Leupold scope! Who in they right mind would pay $1800 for a scope! Then as a past member of a US team, watched as Nightforce fully supported the sport and our teams...something that to best of my knowledge, March has not done...therefore, I've been very loyal to the Nightforce brand..I own 3 15x55 Comp models and now have 3 12x42 NXS. I've also owned a March, which is a great scope..not knocking them at all.

I do have a few concerns regarding the methods in which the scopes are being tested with these scope checkers, but the fact remains where there is this much smoke, there has to be fire. If I ever suspect that my NF scopes are moving on me I'll take it off and send it in and see what happens. That being said, I'm finishing the build on a new gun right now..I wanted a new Comp to put on it, but instead I looked around and found a nice 12x42NXS for it until these "issues" clear themselves up, if there really are any issues with my scopes..

Nightforce is in a tough spot with all this, and its a very slippery slop for them. I think their response is a good one, and the only one they can give..

I don't believe @Alex Wheeler is (or was) a March dealer. The only dealer in the US is Shiraz/Bullets.com. Alex, I think, was just offering to help purchase March scopes (through bullets.com) for guys. I might be wrong though. I also don't think he is doing that anymore, maybe because of the mis-perception that he was a dealer. I'm sure he'll correct me though if I've mis-stated the case.

 

[falconpilot]

Jay,

The whole reason for my bringing up Alex in this thread to began with was to admit that my preconceived notion of his being basis against Nightforce appearss to be proven unfounded. Upon initial search of his postings on this site, it appeared he was a March dealer..If I'm wrong on that point, my apologizes and I stand corrected. As the thread grew and the conversations played out, he proved to be consistent and fair in his testing of ALL scope, good or bad. That speaks for itself.... There is a lot to be learned from that thread..

 

[Thud]

Recently there was a similar discussion on the hide on scopes not returning to zero.
Same scopes were at fault if I read it correctly.
Problem was traced to incorrectly installed rings again if I read it correctly.
One factor that is not mentioned in scope movement is what is supporting the platform ie; what kind of rest, bag, bench, day conditions, what distance.
All the factors involved and how can the shooter say my scope is moving, what are they basing it on.
I wonder if it at times is the tool or the messenger.

 

[Thud]

Also March has had only 2 dealers in the USA since it's introduction.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Jay,

The whole reason for my bringing up Alex in this thread to began with was to admit that my preconceived notion of his being basis against Nightforce appearss to be proven unfounded. Upon initial search of his postings on this site, it appeared he was a March dealer..If I'm wrong on that point, my apologizes and I stand corrected. As the thread grew and the conversations played out, he proved to be consistent and fair in his testing of ALL scope, good or bad. That speaks for itself.... There is a lot to be learned from that thread..

Anyone who buys 4 scopes can be a "dealer". I get an extra 5% off over my regular ffl discount. Do the math there and you can see why I do not sell March scopes to the public. If I build you a rifle I will sell you a March scope at cost. I do not sell scopes to the public anymore. Not worth the 5% I was marking them up. Also, the only other scope to not move was an NXS. Of course most people missed the whole point. If you base your scope purchase on my testing of 10 scopes out of the 1000s out there then it went right over your head. The point is/was, scopes move. Test your equipment. My advise to anyone wanting a March is to get 3 buddies together and put in an order for 4. You will save a couple hundred, thats why I did it.

My business model is simple, I dont have one. I say whats on my mind, I have no interest in second best or good enough, I dont play favorites, and I give my honest thoughts on things. I dont lie to people to sell them things.

 

[FatBoy]

Recently there was a similar discussion on the hide on scopes not returning to zero.
Same scopes were at fault if I read it correctly.
Problem was traced to incorrectly installed rings again if I read it correctly..

The main issue that was brought up was vertically split rings. Almost all of the scopes that did not return to zero had vertically split rings instead of the traditional upper and lower.

 

[dmoran]

The main issue that was brought up was vertically split rings. Almost all of the scopes that did not return to zero had vertically split rings instead of the traditional upper and lower.

Where did you get that from ?
Most the scenario's that I myself am aware of were once the culprit scope was removed and a different scope put back into place, the shifting ceased and accuracy restored and/or gained.
Donovan

 

[FatBoy]

Where did you get that from ?
Most the scenario's that I myself am aware of were once the culprit scope was removed and a different scope put back into place, the shifting ceased and accuracy restored and/or gained.
Donovan

Donovan,

I'm strictly referring to the thread on Snipershide ref: Frank's class in Alaska. They had several different brands of scope not pass a tall target test and in almost all cases they has verticlly split rings instead of a traditional lower with upper 4/6 bolt cap. It was a response to Thud, as he mentioned it.

Edit:

My take away from that thread, as well as every one of these that come up is, there is no golden idol. We have to test every piece of gear we have, regardless of brand or cost.

Chris

 

[dmoran]

@FatBoy
Thanks for clearing that up... my confusion there
Donovan

 

[FatBoy]

@FatBoy
Thanks for clearing that up... my confusion there
Donovan

Me going "off topic" doesn't help. However, if there is something to the Verticle ring issue I think the more who test this the better.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I would take anything Alex says to the bank...

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

there's a simple lesson to be learned here...

 

[CaptainMal]

Larry, thanks for posting the correspondence with nf.

I believe like Alex, a lot missed the whole point of the other thread. I had Alex make me a scope checker long before he made himself one. I was just gonna keep my findings to myself for my own competitive advantage. I still have more nf scopes than any other brand. The "scope check" thread was never ever about bashing any one brand or model.

The TWO things that one should take from that thread...

1- TEST, don't assume
2- If you got one that works, take care of it

Tom

Tom....

Talked with Alex last night. Told him I just bought a Competition AFTER writing that note to Nightforce. I expect to test it thoroughly on one of my Dashers before probably using it on a new BRAI build Alex is doing for me. He just told me he is getting an action built for me with that TG ejector. I will not let out your secret any more.

Steve uses a Competition that Alex tested "good", though some others of his were also tested and did not do good. You are right. Test and use what works. The whole topic is/was quite informative and maybe good for Nightforce as well.