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Newer Powders (like TS 15.5) in .308 Heavy Bullet Loads?

benchracer

I recently decided to modernize a late 90's production Remington 700 VS in .308 Winchester. I had the new barrel set up to run the Berger 200.20X (chambered with the FTR reamer) and went with a Baney box to accommodate up to 3.1 OAL. I have Peterson SRP brass for the new barrel. Bullets I intend to run include Berger 185 Juggernaut, Berger 200 Hybrid, Berger 200.20X, Berger 208 LRHT, and Hornady 208 ELDM.

As for powder, I currently have a modest quantity of VARGET, which is what I will use for the time being. I know VARGET is a popular powder for .308, but I believe it to be sub-optimal for heavy bullets. My sense is that powder technology has lagged behind bullet development for the .308 Winchester, especially with heavy bullets. In the 150 to 175 weight range, at 2.8 OAL, I have found newer powders like 8208 XBR and AR-COMP really shine.

With bullets from about 185 to 200+ grains @ 3.1ish OAL's, it seems to me that powders in the 4350 burn rate range (with the right density to fit in a .308 case) would be a better match for the application than VARGET. Some powders fitting that description are finally beginning to appear. Staball 6.5 seems like it could be a good candidate. Some of the Vihtavuori powders seem worth investigating. Based on published data, TS 15.5 looks like it could be the answer I am looking for. I will have to wait until I can get my hands on some in order to find out.

For anyone who has used the newer powders, with heavy bullets in .308, what has been your experience?
 
Someone here once told me I was approaching an “event horizon“ in this search. For what are you searching? N150 and Varget have been proven time and time again to capable of producing loads with about 1/2 moa vertical at 1000 yards and high 2600s MVs with 200s.

There is no free lunch, velocity requires pressure. Buy a pressure trace and start experimenting. (I did, about 5 or 6 yrs ago).

The 4350s are not the answer.

Re15.5 may be. I’ve been testing it for a while now. I haven’t settled on a load yet, but indications are that it gives Varget/N150 level MVS with something in the range of 5%+ less pressure. I don’t have a solid load with it yet.

If it tunes in it may tune in 50 fps faster than V/150 with 200.20xs. That is an incremental gain.

SRP Brass already lasts effectively forever at normal loads. What seems more promising would be having the option of running LRP brass.

it may well tune in with 208s at MVs approaching the 20x, which would be a good incremental gain, at the expense of recoil.

For most people, the known well established loads are the answer. Chasing velocity is a fools errand. I’ve seen a lot tried in the last 12 yrs or so shooting F-TR, and tried a lot myself. A moderate velocity tight load beats a fast one shooting tall every time. Jennifer B. put up a 200-18x at PHX last yr. On days when the conditions lay down you’re going to get a bunch of cleans with high x counts. Five yrs ago I plugged away a 200-10x and it was good enough for about 5th at the SWN.

If I sound like I’m arguing with myself I am. I’ve spent a lot of time on this quest, at the end of the day I am not sure the squeeze is going to be worth the juice.
 
In 308, Varget, and "heavy" 308 bullets (up to 200g) is a winning combination. I'd bet there's more national 1000 yard records with that combination than anything else. Some with n140 (a little faster) and some with n150 (a little slower)
 
I haven’t tried anything super heavy yet in my 308. Its not throated for it but ive tried berger 180’s in mine with power pro 2000. It seems pretty good and ive read others say it works with the heavies. I have pushed the 180 to 2830’s fps in a 26” barrel but the node for that combo was 2770’s. I also pushed a 165 gamechanger to 2950. It seems pretty dense to load. May not be as accurate as others tho. I got a bunch of 208’s for my wsm that i might try in this 308 just to see what it does.
 
Search this forum for threads about MR 2000 loads in F-TR, and 308s with 185s and maybe 200s. There is a lot of info from about 9 yrs ago.

Bottom line, it gives blistering velocity, and flyers. I use it in my 7-08 hunting loads, you don’t drop points on random 60fps fliers on deer.
 
I have been reading for many years about what a great powder VARGET is. It was the first powder I bought in bulk, about 15 years ago. It's not a bad powder, but it never lived up to the hype, nor is it exceptional in any way. Its lot-to-lot consistency is the worst of any powder I have worked with and it's not even close. In every application I have used it in, I have found other powders that offered better accuracy and velocity. VARGET is mediocre and is, by far, the most OVERRATED powder I can think of. I will not be buying more when I use up my current stock.

VARGET achieved its reputation in F Class circles when 155 and 175 grain bullets were the norm. It is not slow burning enough for optimum performance with the 200 grain class bullets and is borderline with the 185's. It maintains its position because powder technology is not advancing as rapidly as bullet design.

Though my rifle will be shot in FTR format matches on an occasional basis, I have not optimized it for that purpose. I find the 30" barrels that are necessary to make VARGET work in competition to be impractical for any other purpose. The longest barrel I am willing to accept on a carry rifle is 26" (which is the barrel length on my 700 VS).

I am well aware that the 4350's are not the answer I am looking for, chiefly because they are too bulky. As I stated in my initial post, the 4350 BURN RATE is what I believe to be ideal for use with heavy bullets in .308 Winchester. The key is to find something in the 4350 burn rate range that is dense enough to fit in the .308 case. Powders like this are starting to appear. That is what I am interested in investigating and I am interested in the results other have had with some of the newer powders that may be a better fit for the application.

I am not chasing velocity, per se. My objective is to achieve enough velocity to exploit the advantages of the 200 grain class of bullets, at acceptable pressures, with stable and consistent behavior, in a 26" barrel. In most instances, a MV increase of 50 to 75 fps over VARGET/H 4895/IMR 4064 would likely be sufficient to do what I want done. It is possible that the alternative I am searching for does not yet exist, but there appear to be some candidates worth investigating.

For a time, RL-17 was thought by many to be the answer. But, it proved to have stability issues and was hard on barrels.

I have worked with Hybrid 100 V. It was close to what I was after, but not quite there.

I suspect that VV N560 might be dense enough to work and might offer both the velocity and accuracy I am looking for, but probably not the stability. I intend to test it anyway, just to see what may be possible.

VV N555 might offer the performance characteristics I am looking for, but it looks to me like it will be too bulky for the .308 case.

Ditto RL-16.

Staball 6.5 might work. Reports of its accuracy and stability have been mixed.

TS 15.5 looks on paper to be ideal. If it proves to be a slower burning version of AR-COMP, it could be just the ticket.

The only way to know is to test.
 
What are you trying to accomplish with this rifle? Is it just an academic pursuit? and I get that if it is. I've done my share but in practical terms it's not particularly useful endeavor outside of F-TR.

To expand as I see it from here, Outside of F class there is really no practical reason for heavies in a 308. Palma shoots 155s (at least internationally), PRS limits tactical class to 178s (185s have been considered, don't know if they adopted them), and the ballistic advantages of the heavies don't manifest in any particularly useful way, particularly in hunting, until you are beyond 600 yds and ignoring a bunch of other discussion there are better cartridges for that. And you note that this is a carry rifle.

Running a 26" barrel (max from above post) you're going to drop 75 fps or so from the 30" numbers normally seen from an F-TR rifle. I know I can run 168 hybrids from a 23 that fit in an AICS pattern mag with no front plate, at 2750 I do it now in WW brass. Using a 168 from a 26" 2800 (or more) would be easy to do. If Re15.5 buys you back the 75 FPS you lose on the barrel length from 30 to 26 a 200gr bullet is going to be running about 2675ish We get that and a little more now in 30s with N150but that's about the fastest that most people find they tune in until you get over 2700 and that comes at the expense of brass life.

At 400 yds (reasonable hunting range) the 168 running 2800 has 29.6 inches of drop (7.1moa) and 12" of wind drift. At the above noted velocities the 200s will give one (1) more inch of drop and three (3) less inches of drift from a 100 yd zero oin a 10 MPH full value wind. Is that worth it, with more recoil, and a chamber that has to be throated for 200s to get these MV numbers. That's obviously your call.

For your purposes I think Re15.5 may be the answer, it's less dense than some of the other powders mentioned but you can still get enough in the case to approach what I'd consider max pressures. At least I can duplicate the pressures I see with my F-TR loads on my Pressure Trace and gain some velocity, which is probably enough.

P.S. you asked for experiences, I have some, I've shared them, with that you get opinions. Personally I've not shot Varget in competition since before 2015. In '13 the reason I started looking for an alternative was it's availability or lack thereof. Once I discovered N150 (BTW, I was searching for something with the burn rate you are describing here) I had other reasons not to use Varget, the consistency you note being one of them. For the last 8 or 9 yrs I've been shooting N150 lots from 2013, 2015, 2017, 2021 and my loads have been effectively unchanged*. . . that said, some of best shooters on the line in F class have consistently put up winning numbers with Varget.

*there was a time I thought there was a big change, turned out to be my new barrel(s) and not the powder.
 
From my bit of testing I would suggest use h4350 with 32-34” barrels, crazy long throats, and be expecting meter long drop tubes to get enough powder in there to compress load and try to keep up with varget or h4895 velocity wise. Looking back on my notes, h4895 was really solid below 2650 in a 30” barrel. Varget was the best just over 2700 in a 30” barrel. One could go slower easy but the other killed cases when pushed as fast as the other. Of course a double base powder might be faster but what good is speed if reliable accuracy isnt there. This was all with 200gr bullets. In a 26” barrel you’re not going to get much better velocity and accuracy combined than with h4895 or maybe 8208 in my observations. Or if you want to push a 200 fast in a 26” barrel, it’s called a WSM. Ain’t no replacement for displacement.
 
My 700 VS was the second centerfire rifle I ever owned. At the time of purchase (late 90's), it was roughly in line with the standard of the day. I was trying to develop myself as a rifleman and the 700 VS was a good fit as an off-the-shelf place to start. Especially so with the information and resources available to me at the time.

It still occupies that basic function for me. It is still primarily a training rifle. My skills, abilities, and understanding have advanced considerably since then. The associated technology has also advanced considerably in that time, which is why I have updated the rifle to take advantage of that.

When it comes to the shooting world, there are people who view competitive circles as the last word on how to do things and what works. Within limits, I have found the F-Class community to be a valuable resource, have learned a lot from that community, and enjoy participating at the more informal club level. My interests are more generalized than mastering a specific discipline (such as F-Class), which is why I refuse to follow advice that leads down a specialized path.

In general, regardless of the specific shooting discipline, I have encountered two basic philosophical camps. There is the "Everything I need to know about shooting and reloading I learned at Camp Perry in 1957" camp (aka the "Because that's the way Grandpa did it" camp) and the "People who like to learn and try things" camp. Members of the second camp are the ones who advance the art and the sport over time. Those are the people I have learned from and continue to seek out. One can label that philosophy as academic, but it really is not. As for the first camp, I am going to invoke the "Mama Rule" and remain silent.
 
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I commend you for challenging the norm and exploring the unknown. It is where we grow as a community
of shooters. Ive found what works for me well enoungh at present, and will continue to try and excell at working with the wind and mirage for now. I feel its where im lacking and need to work on as a competitor.
 
benchracer said:
My 700 VS was the second centerfire rifle I ever owned. At the time of purchase (late 90's), it was roughly in line with the standard of the day. I was trying to develop myself as a rifleman and the 700 VS was a good fit as an off-the-shelf place to start. Especially so with the information and resources available to me at the time.

It still occupies that basic function for me. It is still primarily a training rifle. My skills, abilities, and understanding have advanced considerably since then. The associated technology has also advanced considerably in that time, which is why I have updated the rifle to take advantage of that.

When it comes to the shooting world, there are people who view competitive circles as the last word on how to do things and what works. Within limits, I have found the F-Class community to be a valuable resource, have learned a lot from that community, and enjoy participating at the more informal club level. My interests are more generalized than mastering a specific discipline (such as F-Class), which is why I refuse to follow advice that leads down a specialized path.

In general, regardless of the specific shooting discipline, I have encountered two basic philosophical camps. There is the "Everything I need to know about shooting and reloading I learned at Camp Perry in 1957" camp (aka the "Because that's the way Grandpa did it" camp) and the "People who like to learn and try things" camp. Members of the second camp are the ones who advance the art and the sport over time. Those are the people I have learned from and continue to seek out. One can label that philosophy as academic, but it really is not. As for the first camp, I am going to invoke the "Mama Rule" and remain silent.
Click to expand...
I fully understand. Years ago when Varget was hard to get, I started playing with 8208XBR. Success

The same thing happened when H4350 was hard to get, I tried RL16, and had fantastic results.

At the beginning of Covid, I bought SW Precision for $20 lb. Now look where we are.

Nothing wrong with listening to the guy at Camp Perry, but like you said, don't get stuck in a rut.
 
I'm not a long range shooter; 500 yards is very long range to me.

Nevertheless, Benchracer brings up some good points, areas where I have had a little experience. First regarding Varget... a good powder certainly, for some uses, but I've found with the .308, regardless of bullet weight, H4895 generally works better and will often provide better accuracy. I think much of Varget's popularity has been with shooters that hear Varget works well, they try it, and don't go any farther.

As for the Remington 700 VS .308... I bought one of these new about thirty years ago. It's been primarily a cast bullet rifle, but it will shoot jacketed bullets very well, too. I've been using it straight-out-of-box since purchase with no molesting or parts change outs except for a scope. The 700 VS has probably been the most accurate production rifle I've owned since the mid-'60s.
 
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What some very knowledgeable people are stating here is that it's not just theory, reality has to step in at some point, and will be the ultimate driver of what works and what doesn't. "Reality" includes both cost-effectiveness and results as inputs/outputs. We know what works, and people are winning in F-TR with a rather limited set of combinations, such as Varget and N150 driving a 200+ gr bullet. If TS15.5 is really an improvement, testing will show that. However, if that proves to be the case, word will eventually get out, almost every F-TR shooter on the planet will try to buy it, and then good luck ever finding it in stock for the next five years. My major foray down into the rabbit hole came a few years back with copper monolithic solid bullets and their uber-high BCs. What I learned was that quantum leaps are a very rare thing in competition sports and I haven't forgetten the lesson. Now I practice wind reading and get a lot more for my time and effort than the copper monolithics would have ever provided.
 
D.kelley said:
Tagging in, I am having my 308 Model 70
rebarreled for 185 Juggernaut and I have
Ts 15.5 .Thanks David
Click to expand...
I did some development work with the 185 Juggs and H100V in the original factory barrel. I was able to get it to tune in around 2750, but it felt like I was pushing a bit harder than I was really comfortable with.

I still have some Juggs and am on the lookout for TS 15.5. I will let you know what I find out.
 
SecondsCount said:
I fully understand. Years ago when Varget was hard to get, I started playing with 8208XBR. Success

The same thing happened when H4350 was hard to get, I tried RL16, and had fantastic results.

At the beginning of Covid, I bought SW Precision for $20 lb. Now look where we are.

Nothing wrong with listening to the guy at Camp Perry, but like you said, don't get stuck in a rut.
Click to expand...
8208 XBR is one of my favorite powders. In .308, I found it to work especially well with the Sierra 155 Palmas. Far superior to VARGET for that application. I also found AR-COMP and the 155 Palmas to be a phenomenal combination in a gas gun. The self-appointed "experts" told me the Palma bullets would be a waste of time in a gas gun. Once again, the "experts" were wrong.
 
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