Newbie: 300 Yard F-Class Score.

[howabouttheiris]

Hi all,

Just starting my shooting life and looking for some reasonable goals.

I shoot 20 shot groups at 300 yards to an FClass scaled target (0.5MOA X, 1MOA 10, 2 MOA 9, ...)

Everyone I ask claims to shoot 200-19X in a 50 mph hail storm, but I never happen to see them on the range to confirm. On these forums, I tend to only find scores of the winners of events. I am not even ready to try to enter one.

Is there any general ranking to say bad / good / very good / excellent / pro for a score.

ie is 190 bad, 195 good, 197 very good, 199 excellent, 200 pro?

For example.... yesterday with my Savage .223 PRVI Match 69g BTHP, I shot 190-2X.

Just have no clue.

Thanks,
Shane

 

[ChipEckardt]

190 is not bad for starting out. I bet you will see some people shooting in the 180s. Biggest thing is to relax and have fun.

Chip

 

[Heavies]

190 is not bad for starting out. I bet you will see some people shooting in the 180s. Biggest thing is to relax and have fun.

Chip

+1.
15 shot matches.
When I started mid 130's where the norm shooting my hunting rifle. Built me a Savage and lots of practice, now mid to high 140's are normal, highest thus far 148. Haven't shot a clean yet. I just have fun, score and winning come secondary.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I agree, 180's are common at every range in F/TR. 170's at 1000 yards...

I would be happy with a 190 at 300 just starting out. Heck, I'd take it in some of the wild conditions I've seen. I've won at 600 with a 187-2X

My point is, people can shoot perfect scores under perfect conditions with perfect ammunition for their rifle. In your case, I bet none of them were true. I have never seen any factory ammunition that shot all that well. With factory ammo, and a stock Savage hunting rifle (or is a comp rifle?) I would be hard pressed to shoot clean at 300. With a well worked-up load, I bet your rifle would be fully competetive at 300 (capable of clean 200's).

Here is what my rifle can do if I do my part:

3 days ago, I was shooting 300 in a fog bank. I could not see the lines in the target or even determine where center was (one of sleepygator's black 10 ring designs). Likewise, I couldn't see any of the bullet holes, so just strung out 15 for record. My gun handling was, to be blunt, less than desirable. The rifle scored a 150 9X . I sincerely doubt I had much to do with it - had I seen the point of impact, I would have made a 1/4 MOA adjustment. The wind that was present was only changing about 1 mph based on the drift I got and the changes in the streamer/mist.

I am not a national champion - more like club level.

National level shooters do put up 200's regularly at 300. The record according to NRA currently stands at 150/13X and 200/16X. If you are looking to be competetive on a national level, cleans are the thing to strive for. On the local level, mid to high 190's might just get the job done.

At 600, the story changes some. At the national championships, the scores for the top 10 shooters at 600 yards ranged from 449 444 / 450. I even saw a few 146 score in there (equivalent to a 195/200).

Hope this helps...

 

[DBailey]

Is there any general ranking to say bad / good / very good / excellent / pro for a score.

ie is 190 bad, 195 good, 197 very good, 199 excellent, 200 pro?

For example.... yesterday with my Savage .223 PRVI Match 69g BTHP, I shot 190-2X.

The 190 is not bad at all. It's 95%, that's a expert score.

Here are the F-Class classifications.

High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 96.50 to 97.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Below 91.50

 

[howabouttheiris]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am shooting a new Savage 12 (accu-stock and accu-trigger) a BSA 4-14 mil-mil scope.

I shot the 190-2 with two 8's, so I really feel that I let a few slip away there. Judging my 100 yard groups, I probably could close in 2 or 3 more with Federal Match or Black Hills Match. I have a bit of a problem identifying my hits from the line, so I am a shot or 2 slow in making a hold-off adjustment, so a spotter may help avoid a back to back 8 or 9. I am seeing some horizontal stringing, so I need to work a bit more on my wind timing/trigger pull.

Hell, with that math, I will be lying about my scores in no time.

 

[howabouttheiris]

The 190 is not bad at all. It's 95%, that's a expert score.

Here are the F-Class classifications.

High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 96.50 to 97.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Below 91.50

Thanks. That answers my question exactly. Just need 3 more points to my next level!!!

........ Why to I think that 'just' is not the right word.

 

[Taildrag15X]

When is started shooting on the then "new" .5 moa Target at 300 yds. I was happy with anything more than 145 as 150-10X was my average with the MR-63 prior to the NRA getting involved and making the smaller Target.


The NRA Classification is the AVERAGE of 120 shots fired during an Approved or Registered Tournaments, for the NRA Rule Book click here..... http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf it will explain about "Classification" and it's use.

Busdriver:

The NRA 300yd. 15 shot Record in both F/TR, F-Open were shot without the use of Target Pits on the same day, and neither Competitior won the Overall High Agg..

 

[howabouttheiris]

Taildrag15X, Thanks for the posting and link.

One question.... What is the target size?

b) NRA No. MR-63 - Reduction of the MR-1 target for use at 300 yards to simulate the 600 yard stage of the
National Match Course.
Aiming Black (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . 2.85
10 ring . . . . . . . . 5.85
9 ring . . . . . . . . . 8.85
8 ring . . . . . . . . 11.85
7 ring . . . . . . . . 17.85


Ummmmm confused.... The other "approved" target is even bigger! Where do these numbers come from?

The target as I understood it, and use for my scoring is.....

DIAMETER
MOA INCHES@300 RING
0.5 1.571 X
1 3.141 10
2 6.282 9
3 9.42 8

 

[howabouttheiris]

Sorry.... reread your post.

Do I understand that the .pdf refers to an old standard and the new one is as I listed?

That would surely explain the "well I used to shoot 149-10x but I don't shoot that well now" that I hear.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

The new target is an MR-63FC and is slightly smaller than 1/2 MOA

X ring is 1.45" and 10 is 2.85"

It's in the rulebook that Taildrag linked to - at the end with all of the F-class rules.

Taildrag15X,

I've never shot sans pits. How does a match proceed? I've seen the term walk and paste, but have no idea how it really works.

 

[howabouttheiris]

Hmmm If I read this correct, I notice that they score by what ring you break into..... vs centers.
.... would this not force all serious competitive shooters to the largest allowed caliber???



So to be totally fair in my scoring, shooting .223, using non fclass targets, scaning, and having software determine all my distances (center bull to center hole)

X = 1.45/2 + .223/2 = bull to center 0.8325"
10 = 2.85/2 + .223/2 = bull to center 1.5365"
...

Sorry for the math, but is this correct/fair?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

You are right. For score shooting, larger bullet diameters have a very slight advantage.

Your calculation of bull center to outermost bullet hole center is correct to the best of my knowledge. The only caution would be that sometimes your bullets won't print a complete bullet diameter hole (my 223 makes holes/marks that measure ~ .219 in the paper). Additionally, a human being is trying to score the target quite rapidly (in order to give good pit service) and will occasionally miss a slight touch of the scoring ring. I use a little smaller window for my measurements during practice. If it isn't a really obvious touch (black mark well into the white ring), I just call it the lower value.

Either way, I've got a lot to learn in wind reading. The rifle can shoot 200-20X +who knows, but I'm the limiting factor!

 

[RDavies]

Hi all,

Everyone I ask claims to shoot 200-19X in a 50 mph hail storm, but I never happen to see them on the range to confirm.


Thanks,
Shane

So true. same with groups sizes on some forums. I am beginning to think my guns are the only ones which shoot bigger than 6" at 1000yds when the wind is howling, snow is falling etc

 

[RDavies]

Hang on, I see your problem, your scores arent "corrected".
Before posting scores on any forum (except this one), you must correct the scores by removing any silly little shots which went outside the core group and replace them with the value of your better, more realistic shots. This more accurately portrays the shooter and guns true potential and those fliers werent the shooters or guns fault any way.

If you cant actualy get to the range, you simply take you best "wallet group" and use that as a basis, increasing the group size by 50% of the increase in distance. The distance you wallet group was fired at is probably more accuratly guessed by yourself, than what the range finder says as range finders rely on cheap electronics.

When posting wind speed you were shooting in, bullets travel at faster than the speed of a jumbo jet, which fly up in the jet stream, so you should actual post what the wind speed was in the jet stream above your shooting location. (derived by watching cloud speed and simple trigonomotry.)
Then there is the caliber handicap system. Classic calibers like 30/30s, 45/70s, 303s are naturaly allowed to increase their score by whatever value it takes to be competitive.
last of all, to reduce the unfair advantage that regular shooters get, you must subtract the amount of times you compete a year from 30, and add this number to your aggregate score.

I,m sure you will agree that this score correcting will make us all much better and consistant shooters.

 

[howabouttheiris]

I think if I applied everything above, I would have to misfire in the parking lot to hurt my perfect score. Thanks for the feedback and laugh.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Rdavies forgot... Add X's lots of X's ;D

Seriously, there are those who inflate their scores in practice. I've noticed it on other sites as well.

Funny thing is, they are all excuses after a terrible performance at the line. Apparently, there is quite a rash of scale failures that result in huge groups, and barrels only last a few hundred rounds - even in 308...

I say it enough that everyone around me knows it - I'm the limiting factor in my score. The rifle can be the X count, but I'm the one that causes the number. For goodness sake, the 10 ring is 1 MOA.

Likewise, even a blind squirrel can find an acorn every once in a while....

 

[Killshot]

Seriously, there are those who inflate their scores in practice.

Now that's delusional.............. not to mention counterproductive!

 

[Erik Cortina]

Hang on, I see your problem, your scores arent "corrected".
Before posting scores on any forum (except this one), you must correct the scores by removing any silly little shots which went outside the core group and replace them with the value of your better, more realistic shots. This more accurately portrays the shooter and guns true potential and those fliers werent the shooters or guns fault any way.

If you cant actualy get to the range, you simply take you best "wallet group" and use that as a basis, increasing the group size by 50% of the increase in distance. The distance you wallet group was fired at is probably more accuratly guessed by yourself, than what the range finder says as range finders rely on cheap electronics.

When posting wind speed you were shooting in, bullets travel at faster than the speed of a jumbo jet, which fly up in the jet stream, so you should actual post what the wind speed was in the jet stream above your shooting location. (derived by watching cloud speed and simple trigonomotry.)
Then there is the caliber handicap system. Classic calibers like 30/30s, 45/70s, 303s are naturaly allowed to increase their score by whatever value it takes to be competitive.
last of all, to reduce the unfair advantage that regular shooters get, you must subtract the amount of times you compete a year from 30, and add this number to your aggregate score.

I,m sure you will agree that this score correcting will make us all much better and consistant shooters.

I always laugh when people post 4 shot groups! ;D

Also, I laugh when they post a groups that has three touching and two shots way out and they say "My gun is super accurate, this is a group I shot with two called flyers!" LOL

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I shoot 4 shot groups - when I only have 4 rounds left!

From a testing standpoint, I don't even give much creedence to 5 shot groups. I like to use 10 shots at the longest available range for final analysis of my loads.

When I start calling flyers and excluding them from a group, it is time to pack it up. When I'm testing, if I feel like I sent one the wrong way, I stop shooting that group and start over. There is nothing to gain from fooling one's self.