New to " Bench Rest shooting " & this forum & need some help.

[mjk1]

I hope your allowed to ask questions of this nature but didn't know where to start.
A little background info on how I Got HERE. I have been shooting for about 2 years. Have mostly tactical stuff, home defense, pistols/ AR's / bullpups a collection of FNH weapons among the lot.

I have recently purchased an AR-10 ( armalite ) and ran into accuracy issues at 200 yds , in thed process of trying to straighten out the AR-10 I ran into a " recovering " Bench Rest " shooter. He had schooled me about many things related to accurate shooting and what effects what ect... We set my weapon up on his J Hart Rest and the story begins.

I recently purchased a Sinclair gun rest and a couple of front bags and a rear bag, went out to the range today and has at it. My results were less than expected and it appears that shooting accurately is a lot more complicated & difficult than I 1st... had thought. I have a couple of questions that I was hoping to get some help with. My main goal ( was ) is to site my own personal rifles into a higher degree of accuracy and then let the hobby take me where it may.

What I ran into today was problems with my rear bag and the different stocks , is there a rear bag specifically for the non traditional aftermarket stocks ?
Is there a Bench Rest shooting video that is worth watching that I could pick up some pointers from. I was watching a Bench rest video on You Tube and it was only 2:00 min long, and NOT instructional >

I realize I have the wrong type of guns for this sport but would like to start somewhere, can I get any advise on what to watch and any instructional videos out there ?

Hope this makes sense, and is in the appropriate forum section.

Thanks
mjk1

 

[jonbearman]

Can you tell us alitlle more like what calibers you use in which rifles,which rear bag specifically you use,do you handload,what ammo is used etc etc.

 

[82boy]

Welcome to the site.
To start there is a big difference between Benchrest shooting and shoot off of a bench. You may have a rest, and shooting off of a bench but your not Benchrest shooting. Benchrest shooting is where shooters compete against one another in timed match's. There is several disciplines of Benchrest shooting from point blank 100-300 yard, to mid/long range 600 and 1000 yards, from group to score, and all the different classes.

To start, there is little on the internet about Benchrest shooting in the area of instruction videos. There is a few great books out there that can help. One of the best is a book that is available at low cost and that is Glenn Newick's book "The ultimate in rifle accuracy" You should be able to pick this book up on amazon for around $15 bucks. There are two other great books that have tons of information on Benchrest shooting and that is Mike Ratigan's book "Extreme Rifle Accuracy" and Tony Boyer's book "The book of rifle accuracy" Any of these books will help you out.

Do a search on this site there is a vast wealth of information on the subject, in both the forums, and the articles.

 

[RGraham]

http://www.rifleaccuracybook.com

 

[bdale]

Go to you tube type in Jack Neary

 

[Phil3]

82boy is right in my opinion. You should decide whether this "benchrest" shooting will be something you want to compete in, or is shooting off a bench for fun with no competition involved. For me, it is the latter.

You can certainly apply many techniques from BR to make you and your AR-10 shoot better. I have an AR-15 and an Armalite AR-10 platform I am building. I can tell you the semi-autos can be harder to "drive" than a bolt gun. The bolt flying back and forth, and a heavy one at that in an AR-10 can make it more challenging to fire. Same with the slow lock time. There is a product from Evolution Gun Works to allow AR style rifles to ride the bags, but this is for use in a standard A2 stock and a round front float tube.

The AR-10 is not going to match a good bolt gun in accuracy, but ARs can be made quite accurate. My AR-15 has done .30" 5 shot groups and I am sure it will do better with superior ammo.

Tell us about the AR equipment (trigger, barrel, caliber, twist, ammo used, and rifle/rest/bag arrangement). I am sure we can get the AR to shoot better or find out why it is not. Do tell us what you consider not very good results on accuracy. Also, the books on accurate shooting recommended should be helpful I would think, but I have not read them.

Phil

 

[mjk1]

First , sorry for the late reply. I tried to respond last night at our movie intermission but a couple wrong keystrokes and Win7 dumped my 3 paragraph reply. I want to say that I was impressed with what I saw from my new acquaintance ( Bench Rest Rick ). I tried to copy what he had as a set-up and learned a few things along the way.

2nd, I primarily shoot 5.56 & .308 at least that is what I'm focusing on , my weapons are accurate but I had a " brainstorm " with getting a good front rest and some bags and zero'ing in my optics to lets say " BR " level accuracy. I don't load my own ammo, but do use match grade in my .308 ( AR-10 armalite & Scar 17 ). I want to say that I may never get to competition.... but please don't shrug me off because of that. I actually really didn't realize how big the Bench Rest shooting community is and that there are all these levels of matches, rules, and businesses involved. Not until I joined this forum, anyways. You could say I was aware of competitative shooting but not knowledgable as to it's scope in the gun world.

3rd, My Ar-10 problem, which got me here. I had BRR (bench rest Richard ) help me out last week. I have an Armalite 20" barrel that shot 3-4 MOA at 100 yds but at 200yds is was 5-6 MOA ( at best )set up on BRR's rest & bags with using 168 Gr Seirra Match King BTHP's. It has an 1 : 11.250 twist and from what I can tell a cheaper Eagle Arms barrel. I currently sent the rifle back to Armalite, all my problems with grouping is verticle. BRR said that is a good thing, it could be ( headspacing- throat length - and ??? ) he even had me check the barrel nut torque. I did torque it to the high end of the Armalite spec range which was 90#'s. After that , I tested it and my 100yrd groupings got better but my 200 yrd shots were worse. I do have a Kreiger barrel ordered for this weapon ( M110 ) and I'm intending it to be my " sniper build ".
Currently like said , the AR-10 went back to armalite, to get their assistance. As soon as it returns, I will ship my bolt to Kreiger for chambering .

4th, my Sinclair rest & bag set up. I have a Sinclair ( new style ) tripod rest and 3 bags. The front bags are Protecktor #1 & #2 and my rear bag is a Protecktor #13B. What I did was try to copy BRR. He had such an impressive bench full of toys and knowledge that I'm trying to learn from him & You guy's ( this forum in general ). I took my AR-15 out yesterday and tried to duplicate the bench rest shooting style and zero in my glass. That's when I ran into issues. My junk Voltor e-mod stock didn't sit in the bag well. Thus the less than happy results and all my questions. I have actually shot better groups w/ bipod & my shoulder. I'm not giving up I just have to learn a little more. It is apparent that I will have to return my weapons to the A2 stock config , which will enable me to use the rest & bags. I really struggled yesterday, I was trying to do what you guy's do but with the wrong expectations and rifles. I couldn't get anything better than a 3-4 MOA and I have shot 1 to 1.5 at 100 with my shoulder. That is using the 62gr Federal LC M855. My AR's seem to like that round.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, Thank you to all whom responded. I will look into these leads, and learn a little more.
I'm always open to thoughts & suggestions. I'm going to start with my Armalite, and see where the Bench Rest shooting goes. I just thought after all the reading & investigating that this forum is a good place to start & learn.

1 more thing , how long before I get to stop answering the 3 dumb arse questions everything I post ( at the bottom ) It there a way around that ? ( minute, point, bipod .... ) drives me crazy.

Thanks
mjk1

 

[mjk1]

I guess 2 more questions, what bags can I get to secure the AR's I have in the " REAR " while using the Sinclair rest ? Is there some options besides the rabbit ear rest I have ?

regarding the front bags , what / how is the shoe string used ?

Thanks

 

[jonbearman]

The first thing to do to any ar is get bag riders that attach to the sling swivels or inplace of them. I am sure someone will chime in where you can get them. Basically it changes the shape without modifying the stocks so it can ride the bags much like a benchrest gun does..

 

[BoydAllen]

http://www.egwguns.com/bag-riders/egw-ar-bag-rider-bench-rest-system/

Your stock has to be able to slide, smoothly and easily in the bags. Sling swivel studs, or surface textures that cause the rifle to have traction are not what you want. Without that any other advice would be wasted. The next thing is how you are holding the rifle. I would try a very firm hold, but I would not use the full pistol grip, because you may torque the rifle as you pull the trigger. Thirdly, I would concentrate on adding pressure to the trigger until the rifle went off, but in a way that you do not know precisely when this will happen. Do not pulse the trigger as if you want it to go off at a precise instant. Just keep adding pressure till it fires. Another issue is follow through. Your should not react or move on or away from the rifle during recoil. It should be like you are an inanimate object that is on and behind the rifle. You said 5-6 MOA. By that you imply 10-12 inches at 200 yd. Is that what you meant to say? How do you clean the rifle? What shape are the "groups".

 

[seattleray]

Here's a link re. Bag Rider systems...........

http://6mmar.com/Benchrest_AR.html

r in w

 

[Phil3]

If in your shoes, I would do the following:

1) Use the A2 stock with Evolution Gun Works Bag rider for the stock.
2) I don't know what hand guard you have, but if round, get the EGW bag rider for the front. Sinclair makes one as does Hart, and perhaps others, that may be affixed to a picatinny rail, but I am not sure on this. You must get the rifle to slide easily without sticking, front to rear.
3) I presume the rifle does have a free float hand guard. If not, fix that immediately.
4) Check the optics on the gun. Loose scope, scope mount, or scope failing internally. Try the scope on another gun to rule it out.
5) You must have a quality trigger. JP Rifles, Timney, Geiselle, are all good.
6) You must have a quality barrel. Armalite is not bad, from experiences of others, but Krieger will be excellent.
7) Reload! If you want the best loaded ammo, that is Federal GoldMatch, and it is expensive! If the gun won't shoot that well, it is either you or something else in the gun.
Set up the gun well. It is known that AR-15s tend to shoot better off a front bag, if the bag is close to the receiver, NOT at the end of the float tube. The rifle should not be flopping around on the bags or rest.
9) Drive the gun. Ask other AR shooters about follow through, trigger control, grip, cheek weld, sight picture, etc. You can not shoot it well, unless you are comfortable, relaxed, and fit well behind the gun.
10) Have another known good shooter fire the gun. This will determine if there is a shooter skill element that needs work.

I might recommend that if you can, you may wish to opt for the 260 Remington over the 308. Notably less recoil, superior ballistics. The reduced recoil will help your shooting. I'd even recommend the 243 Winchester, but it does tend to burn through barrels relative to the 308.

Hope this helps.

Phil