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New to 6mmBR but getting frustrated...

Colo-PR

Hi guys, new here in the forum. Being shooting and reloading for years but finally got in to precision shooting and things are not going very well here.

I recently bought a Savage 12 Bench Rest model in 6mm BR and I started the load development to find a good match but so far nothing, probably I'm too desperate or the lack of knowledge in this area is the issue.

I shoot only in an indoor range (so no wind) at 100 yards and I'm expecting from that rifle make a 3 shoots in 1 hole, that's my goal and I think the rifle should be capable (if not ill be so disappointed after spent all the money)

The first issue I found is that there is pretty much NO load data out there, the most I found is in the 6mmbr website but for some reason I always don't have all the right ingredients. I started with 68gr bullets and 70gr as well, so far I made 2 shots in the same hole and the third about 3" apart.

During my loading I'm sorting the brass which is Lapua by weight, im also sorting the bullets first by weight, and then by dimensions using the brownels 6mm collect and a caliper. Im using Redding competition dies, CCI BR primers, new brass, 264 bushing (I also tried 266 and 268 but the results are worst)

I even tried the Lapua 105gr ammo and nothing special, I can make a better group with my AR. I have a Sightron S3 10-50.

The rifle is 1-8 twist and I just bought Sierra Match King 107g, Nosler Comp 105g and Barnes 80gr Tipped TSX but the same thing, when I'm looking online for recipes, NOTHING.

I have the next powders in hand:
Reloader 15
Varget
IMR4064
Benchmark
H335
N135
N140

Now, how I should start the load development? because there is ton of adjustments which can make a difference, I stopped playing with the neck tension and im going to continue with different powders, different grains, but also there is different OAL, etc.

In a side note, I took the rifle out of the stock yesterday to adjust the trigger (best I can get is 8oz without any malfunction) and I found that all screws where finger tight (weird), but when im looking for info about that the opinions are all mixed, the Savage website says 30-35" pounds but I found many people in other forums saying just finger tight, so im not sure but im thinking that there's probably my issue.

I appreciate any help and any guidance of how to continue my load development.

Thanks in advance,

Angel
 
What is the twist on your rifle a 1:8 would prefer 95 t0 108gr bullets. A slower twist will shoot 68 to 88 gr bullets flat base for 100 yds. If you cannot get the Savage barrel to shoot there are many small and large shank ( barrels to fit your particular action) threaded and ready for you to fit in your Savage. Go /no go gauges, a suitable barrel vise, and Savage barrel nut wrench will let you do the work no gunsmith required. The powders you listed are widely used in the 6br. I have a Savage 110 in 6br with an after market barrel, it is by far the easiest cartridge to load for accuracy I have ever loaded for. This forum has a treasure trove of information on this cartridge. GOOD LUCK & GOOD SHOOTING


perry42
 
With a factory made rifle you have no idea what you'll get. A 6 br is a very easy to tune round. After what You have tried, I would replace the barrel.
 
I get better results with the CCI 450 magnum primers. Don't worry about neck tension just yet. Settle on something reasonable and just make sure it's consistent. Varget or Vihtavuori N-140 are two good starting powders. Pick one and stick with it at first.

Try loads in increments of 2%. I prefer to start with a .010" jump for initial development, but suit yourself based on previous experience. I like to find a load, then a seating depth, then fine tune things like neck tension.
Make sure your loads are weighed very accurately; I use .02gr because that's the limit of my equipment. The more precisely you weigh your powder, the more meaningful your development data will be.

Measure your groups as accurately as you can and keep good records. I prefer five shots, but some folks like three. I use On Target software to measure my scanned targets and save the data in an Excel spreadsheet. You can't decide on where to go unless you know where you've been.

You can expect to quickly find a load which will give you sub .5MOA five-shot groups at 100 yards. Soon you can expect essentially ALL your 5 shot groups to be .5 MOA or better with a fair number of .25 MOA groups and a few better than that. Expecting your bullets to all go in the same hole is unrealistic unless you actually live in your Mom's basement and do all your load development on the Internet as opposed to the rifle range.

Be precise with your loading procedure, shoot in zero wind conditions if possible, use your best bench rest technique, and (most important of all) measure your results with great care and keep good records so you can make sense of the results.
 
Scope ring screws torqued to spec? Scope base screws torqued to spec and not bottoming on the barrel threads? Scope known to be good by testing on other rifles? Action screws torqued to spec (NOT finger tight -- http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/)? Barrel touching the stock somewhere? Trigger touching the stock somewhere? Bolt handle touching the stock? Bedding? Rests/bags that aren't moving on the bench, touching a swivel stud, rubbing a cheekpiece, etc.? Barrel clean? Crown in good shape?

If none of the above, you could try a new barrel. Or sell the whole thing and buy a used BR rifle. :)

Three shots in one hole in an equilateral triangle is a sub-0.250 group. Despite what you read on the internet, there are precious few factory rifles that will do that "all day long."
 
I have seen several Savages in 6BR that are not far off from some custom guns. See if you can hook up with an experienced bench shooter in your area. Read the 6br info available on this web site . Most 6br shooters I know use Varget with heavy bullets. I shot a 6br for several yrs. before moving to a 6BRX which is the same case blown out to shoot about 10% more powder. You can try different seating depths, powder charges, and neck tension. I like a good bit of neck tension. I start with a square mark on the bullet from the rifling and back up .003 at a time until I find what it likes. One important thing is do not change more than one thing at a time when doing load work up. I start with powder, than go to seating depth. If I am still not satisfied I play with neck tension. Pay attention to gun handling. It's not talked about much but is as important as anything else. I belive in another section on this site this is an article on the tension for the stock screw. I always did mine just by feel, making the front very tight ,the middle almost that tight and the rear a tiny bit less.
 
Toby Bradshaw said:
Scope ring screws torqued to spec? Scope base screws torqued to spec and not bottoming on the barrel threads? Scope known to be good by testing on other rifles? Action screws torqued to spec (NOT finger tight -- http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/)? Barrel touching the stock somewhere? Trigger touching the stock somewhere? Bolt handle touching the stock? Bedding? Rests/bags that aren't moving on the bench, touching a swivel stud, rubbing a cheekpiece, etc.? Barrel clean? Crown in good shape?

If none of the above, you could try a new barrel. Or sell the whole thing and buy a used BR rifle. :)

Three shots in one hole in an equilateral triangle is a sub-0.250 group. Despite what you read on the internet, there are precious few factory rifles that will do that "all day long."
Click to expand...

Scope ring screws torqued to spec? ---yes
Scope base screws torqued to spec? ---yes
and not bottoming on the barrel threads? ---don't know what is this
Scope known to be good by testing on other rifles? ---yes
Action screws torqued to spec --- im going to work on that tomorrow
Barrel touching the stock somewhere? ---dont think so, will confirm soon
Trigger touching the stock somewhere? you mean just the trigger or the trigger housing? ---have to confirm
Bolt handle touching the stock? ---dont think so, will confirm tomorrow
Bedding? ehhh, NOP, I have to learn and looks more information about that.
Rests/bags that aren't moving on the bench, touching a swivel stud, rubbing a cheekpiece, etc.? --- yes, dont have that issue with my Savage 22LR, i can shoot 1/4 or less
Barrel clean? ---how much clean between shooting sessions? just the brush or solvent and patches too?
Crown in good shape? ---is a brand new rifle but I will check tomorrow specifically for that.

Thanks a lot for this to-do list, is great!
 
Colo-PR said:
and not bottoming on the barrel threads? ---don't know what is this
Click to expand...
Often the holes for the front base screws go all the way through the receiver where the barrel threads into the action. [I don't know if this is the case on a Savage action.] If the base screws hit the barrel threads before the screw head bottoms out on the base, the base will be loose. SOMETHING is loose on your rifle or wrong with your shooting technique (no offense intended) or the barrel is bad. No 6BR load problem is going to throw a shot 3" from the group at 100yd as you have reported.

It would be worth verifying the twist rate on your barrel, too.

Action screws torqued to spec --- im going to work on that tomorrow
Barrel touching the stock somewhere? ---dont think so, will confirm soon
Trigger touching the stock somewhere? you mean just the trigger or the trigger housing? ---have to confirm
Click to expand...

Usually it's the trigger housing that rubs, but no part of the trigger/housing should touch the stock.

Bedding? ehhh, NOP, I have to learn and looks more information about that.
Click to expand...

Usually worth doing but unlikely to move a bullet 3MOA.

Rests/bags that aren't moving on the bench, touching a swivel stud, rubbing a cheekpiece, etc.? --- yes, dont have that issue with my Savage 22LR, i can shoot 1/4 or less
Click to expand...

Good to know. :)

Barrel clean? ---how much clean between shooting sessions? just the brush or solvent and patches too?
Click to expand...

How many rounds have you shot so far? With a factory barrel, I wouldn't let it go too long (20 shots or so) without getting the copper and carbon out of it.

Crown in good shape? ---is a brand new rifle but I will check tomorrow specifically for that.
Click to expand...

It's a brand new FACTORY rifle. It can be surprising what passes QC.

Thanks a lot for this to-do list, is great!
Click to expand...

No problem. Good shooting!
 
I have the same rifle, and am still working on load development, but won a factory class ground hog shoot this weekend with br4's, berger 105 hybrids and varget. On mine they seem to like .005 jammed. Ive not really shot it at 100 yards other then to sight it in and fire form brass. My load development has all been done at 200. I'd try a heavier bullet myself.

Conditions weren't stable saturday, but this is at 200 yards. Usually they all touch
 

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I have had my ass handed to me more than once at IBS 1000 yard BR by those shitty little stock Savages. I can't remember if they were the 6.5-284 or the 6 BR....it doesn't matter....my $4,000.00 custom BAT had just took a lickin by a factory gun so I stormed off mad!! ( :D )

I think they are either GREAT or BAD shooters....Murphy's law not withstanding!!

Good luck.
Tod
 
Colo-PR you've picked a great cartridge and rifle to start with. After reading all the posts so far it looks like you have a good understanding of what is needed so I'm sure you can put together a load that should shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups if you do your part. A load that has worked for me in every gun I've ever tried it in, regardless of twist, is
32.0 grains Varget
87 Gr. Berger hunting VLD
CCI 450 or Federal 205M primer
with about 2 0r 3/1000s neck tension
seated so it just touches the rifling, no more than 5/1000s is needed

this load should shoot great in your Savage. It looks like you've already checked the rings, action screws and so-on. So your rifle should be ready. Go forth, load, shoot...measure small groups. If It doesn't shoot well, let me know.

Dan
 
I have built two 6BRs on savage PTAs. Both have shilen barrels currently but one started out with a factory 6BR barrel. Tried all of my loads that shot in the low 2s with my first rifle and all of my groups were .75-2" at 100 even after I burned a lot of time with tuning. Changed the barrel only and it shoots consistently well less than 0.5" at 100 with no other changes. Sounds like you have a mechanical problem you can't tune out. I'd get a prefit barrel and call it done.

Also, with the savage target triggers I got them to be more reliable at low weight by trimming and stretching the blade spring to make it lighter but still catch the sear and prevent misfires.
 
Angel,
FWIW and since the previous posters have covered many ideas, may I suggest that once you get your barrel issue worked out, get hold of some Bart's 68 gr Ultra Flat Based bullets being pushed by VVN133. My Savage Model 12 BR, still (did from day one) shoots in the 1's @ 100 yds when I do my part and I'm on me second barrel in 5 years. The current barrel is a Kreiger 1:8 and I've only changed the trigger to a Rifle Basix SAV2. The rest of the rifle is just like it was when it came out of the box from Savage. I've tested extensively looking for the load that she likes best, and though Varget and 105's work great at 600 - 1000 yds, the lighter 68's outshot everyone else at 100 yds. Also be mindful of your setup at the indoor range. That can make a huge difference in good accuracy and GREAT accuracy.

Alex
 
IT MIGHT BE YOUR SCOPE !!! I have a Sightron S-3 10X50 also which I bought used here on the forum. This scope doesn't have a lock ring on the ocular lens but relies on a cheap rubber sleeve to maintain the crosshair in position. Place your rifle in a SOLID rest peer through the scope until the dot or cross hair is perfectly steady on your target. Lightly touch the ocular lens and see if the cross hair shifts from position. I have no idea, nor does Sightron know what kind of rubber the sleeve incorporates. It's entirely possible that your rubber sleeve has dried out and it has lost the elasticity it once had. Recoil alone can cause the crosshair to jump from one position to another. Long story short, I replaced my rather badly worn rubber sleeve with a new one and the problem (reticle shift) went away. However I'm still very careful about touching or bumping the ocular when working on a good group. ...................... FWIW, Dale
 
I believe that action os one of Savage's 3 screw actions.

If it is, the rear most action screw should be only finger tight or your groups will be wildly not uniform. My Long Range Precision Action has the third screw just finger tight and I have to use fingernail polish on the threads to keep from having it fall out.

If it is a two screw action, always tighten the front screw firmly, then the rear screw, then torque the front screw then torque the rear screw.
 
Colo-PR said:
I even tried the Lapua 105gr ammo and nothing special, I can make a better group with my AR. I have a Sightron S3 10-50.

The rifle is 1-8 twist and I just bought Sierra Match King 107g, Nosler Comp 105g and Barnes 80gr Tipped TSX but the same thing, when I'm looking online for recipes, NOTHING.
Click to expand...

If your rifle waon't shoot pretty darned good with Lapua ammo, you have some other issue.

If your rifle will not shoot pretty good with 107 Sierra MK, 30 grains of R15, a CCI c450, jumping 20 thou, you have another problem.

And you are trying to shoot short line with long range bullets and expecting short range bullet accuracy.
 
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